The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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This is one of the reasoning to logical conclusion issues for this interpretive theory. @Kroogz seemed to state openly the "one and done" (believe for eternal life) and sin as much as we want, go to heaven when we die, and just lose rewards theory.
I used to live in an area filled with this teaching, and others, but the sinful lifestyles while professing Christ were out of control.
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable (disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Titus 1:16 NKJ)
I used to live in an area filled with this teaching, and others, but the sinful lifestyles while professing Christ were out of control.
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable (disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Titus 1:16 NKJ)
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Last point of this contentiousness and you can have the last word of this type and even continue if you'd like.
You're projecting again. The beginning of my discussions with you were dealing with your rudeness. In addition, I'm versed enough to see the bullies who attempt to influence the discussion with a supposed knowledge of Greek, which I sat under for 3,000 to 4,000 hours of teaching - listening for years as a nearly full-time job - then became formally trained in and thereafter have been practicing for 2+ decades much of which was spent teaching from. I can see you and I know your theology.
The wisest thing you are doing is being silent with explaining yourself from Scripture because there are a few of us here who can take you to task and very likely more deeply than you are able to go in the Text.
With that said, hopefully clearly enough, I'm not suggesting any one of us can prove to any other's satisfaction how and where they may be wrong. Belief is a powerful capability whatever it believes.
You're projecting again. The beginning of my discussions with you were dealing with your rudeness. In addition, I'm versed enough to see the bullies who attempt to influence the discussion with a supposed knowledge of Greek, which I sat under for 3,000 to 4,000 hours of teaching - listening for years as a nearly full-time job - then became formally trained in and thereafter have been practicing for 2+ decades much of which was spent teaching from. I can see you and I know your theology.
The wisest thing you are doing is being silent with explaining yourself from Scripture because there are a few of us here who can take you to task and very likely more deeply than you are able to go in the Text.
With that said, hopefully clearly enough, I'm not suggesting any one of us can prove to any other's satisfaction how and where they may be wrong. Belief is a powerful capability whatever it believes.
Talk about falsly accusing.
Now compare this with people who paul continued to go against, self righteous people who thought they were saved beased on what they do. how good they were. or following certain commands.
its amazing,
the licentious calls grace believers legalistic. because we call them out when they try to think they can commit all these sins and it is ok.
the legalist calls us out because they claim we believe we can live in sin.
sadly. both are based in pride
one refuses to repent of his or her sins, the other refuses to repent and acknowledge God as the only way to heaven.
I was saved by GRACE, not of works lest I should boast.
Keep on boasting, then deny you are boasting..
your just hurting yourself.
Now compare this with people who paul continued to go against, self righteous people who thought they were saved beased on what they do. how good they were. or following certain commands.
its amazing,
the licentious calls grace believers legalistic. because we call them out when they try to think they can commit all these sins and it is ok.
the legalist calls us out because they claim we believe we can live in sin.
sadly. both are based in pride
one refuses to repent of his or her sins, the other refuses to repent and acknowledge God as the only way to heaven.
I was saved by GRACE, not of works lest I should boast.
Keep on boasting, then deny you are boasting..
your just hurting yourself.
I never assume that an individual Christian's belief in Eternal Security leads them automatically to sin. I have known many who believe OSAS who live holy loving lives before God. I have also known seen many others who really do use OSAS as a license to sin. When I see that I pray they will repent for there is no cleansing for those who are refuse to walk in the light. Cleansing like salvation and the experience of Christs life is ongoing and depends on our CONTINUING in the light.
When it comes to salvation I see that there is a point at which we BEGIN to believe. After that comes a long growing season when we ABIDE in Him. Finally, will come the time of completion when we will be gathered into the barn. These three phases of life are revealed in the following scripture:
10 He HAS delivered (or saved) us from such a deadly peril, [past] and He will deliver (or save) us. In Him we have placed our hope that He WILL YET AGAIN deliver (save) us, [final destiny]
(2 Corinthians 1:10)
I have never believed I must EARN my position in Christ through the performance of "good works." EARNING eternal life is utterly foreign to me. I know myself too well. I am no more depending on myself now than I was when, under the conviction of the Spirit, I saw my sin and quit depending on myself and gave my life to Him. It is no more a work to do that now than it was when I first began trusting Christ.
When it comes to salvation I see that there is a point at which we BEGIN to believe. After that comes a long growing season when we ABIDE in Him. Finally, will come the time of completion when we will be gathered into the barn. These three phases of life are revealed in the following scripture:
10 He HAS delivered (or saved) us from such a deadly peril, [past] and He will deliver (or save) us. In Him we have placed our hope that He WILL YET AGAIN deliver (save) us, [final destiny]
(2 Corinthians 1:10)
I have never believed I must EARN my position in Christ through the performance of "good works." EARNING eternal life is utterly foreign to me. I know myself too well. I am no more depending on myself now than I was when, under the conviction of the Spirit, I saw my sin and quit depending on myself and gave my life to Him. It is no more a work to do that now than it was when I first began trusting Christ.
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They absolutely have to do this. They have a subjective "list" for salvation. They have to be better than the next guy.
Luke 18:11
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:11
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
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Falsely accusing who? If it doesn't fit you, then relax. But I can assure you it fits others. If @Kroogz thinks differently, he can clear it up himself, which is why I flagged him because I mentioned something I recalled him saying.
All different traditions call each other out. So do you. So do I. It's why I try to get back to Scripture but it's not easy to do.
I don't think it's all pride. As I said earlier, belief is a strong capacity and among other factors different people have different reactions or responses to protect theirs.
So were all of us who were saved.
You should really stop the accusations and apply your last statement to yourself with a little spelling correction.
All different traditions call each other out. So do you. So do I. It's why I try to get back to Scripture but it's not easy to do.
I don't think it's all pride. As I said earlier, belief is a strong capacity and among other factors different people have different reactions or responses to protect theirs.
So were all of us who were saved.
You should really stop the accusations and apply your last statement to yourself with a little spelling correction.
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You know this is the meat of the word. But if you're still stuck on salvation and the milk. You mix the meat with the milk.
Those who think salvation can be lost, forfeited or maintained are ALWAYS out of fellowship with the Spirit who Guarantees their eternal life.
You Are sinning habitually by denying HIM who bought you. You are NOT your own.
Everything you are doing is through your own human good/evil......Burned up. And saved as if through fire.
Paul understood this VERY well.
Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
We can tell a mature believer from an immature believer pretty easily......Ask them how much they sin. Because when one gets to know true holiness......We all sin all the time.
Those who think salvation can be lost, forfeited or maintained are ALWAYS out of fellowship with the Spirit who Guarantees their eternal life.
You Are sinning habitually by denying HIM who bought you. You are NOT your own.
Everything you are doing is through your own human good/evil......Burned up. And saved as if through fire.
Paul understood this VERY well.
Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
We can tell a mature believer from an immature believer pretty easily......Ask them how much they sin. Because when one gets to know true holiness......We all sin all the time.
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i did not want to sin. I left the church because my wife kicked me out of my house for another man. And I felt like a failure and judged because I was in a legalistic church where it was forbidden to leave the marraige. they expected me to fight for it.. and I was done. so I left.
That is an excruciatingly painful and demeaning thing to go through. I know because I went through the same thing when my former wife abandoned me to go after another man. According to Jesus Himself the marriage union cannot be EXCEPT in the case of adultery (on the part of either spouse) When it happens the guilt rests not on both equally but on the partner who COMMITTED THE CRIME. As bad as what your ex-spouse's adultery was, it FREED you from your covenant bond with her. After Israel broke their marriage covenant with God it was dissolved and they had no longer any relationship with Him.
9And the LORD said, “Name him (the son born of the union between Hosea and Gomer) Lo-ammi, for you are NOT MY PEOPLE, and I am NOT YOUR GOD (Hosea 1:9).
Whatever Church you were attending was wrong
That is an excruciatingly painful and demeaning thing to go through. I know because I went through the same thing when my former wife abandoned me to go after another man. According to Jesus Himself the marriage union cannot be EXCEPT in the case of adultery (on the part of either spouse) When it happens the guilt rests not on both equally but on the partner who COMMITTED THE CRIME. As bad as what your ex-spouse's adultery was, it FREED you from your covenant bond with her. After Israel broke their marriage covenant with God it was dissolved and they had no longer any relationship with Him.
9And the LORD said, “Name him (the son born of the union between Hosea and Gomer) Lo-ammi, for you are NOT MY PEOPLE, and I am NOT YOUR GOD (Hosea 1:9).
Whatever Church you were attending was wrong
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My condolences for the sufferings you've gone through. I think we likely all have our own histories and we're still here so we may have more. FWIW, I'm aware of experiences others have gone through with marriages and church direction that is worse than your experience. I'm not saying this to slight what you went through but to comment on the condition of churches.
With that said and meant, you know your above apology is rhetorical and I'll just add is another poor evaluation of what I know and understand.
I'll also say what I began saying to you; your experiences and the ways you ultimately handled them does not mean that all have or will share your outcome of holding onto your faith knowing God has ahold of you.
An observation about this thread as about most of these threads; the OP remains unresolved and debated, which is another example of the condition of the church (but not His Ekklesia) that remains disappointing to many and for good reason.
With that said and meant, you know your above apology is rhetorical and I'll just add is another poor evaluation of what I know and understand.
I'll also say what I began saying to you; your experiences and the ways you ultimately handled them does not mean that all have or will share your outcome of holding onto your faith knowing God has ahold of you.
An observation about this thread as about most of these threads; the OP remains unresolved and debated, which is another example of the condition of the church (but not His Ekklesia) that remains disappointing to many and for good reason.
After all these pages and the atmosphere replies have generated I've arrived at the question, what are we really doing here?
The OP poses a question. And we answer based on our own understanding of the Bible.
We each live our faith. And we try to lead others to believe as we do. And expect those to whom we post will concede we are right and by that concession admit they are wrong.
Rarely does someone say that. "You are right. I was reading that passage the wrong way."
Instead, we all act as though we want to win the argument.
And how do we talk to one another in the coarse of all this?
We wonder why the church,Christian individuals, is divided. I think we can see why in these many pages.
Love God. Live peace.
The OP poses a question. And we answer based on our own understanding of the Bible.
We each live our faith. And we try to lead others to believe as we do. And expect those to whom we post will concede we are right and by that concession admit they are wrong.
Rarely does someone say that. "You are right. I was reading that passage the wrong way."
Instead, we all act as though we want to win the argument.
And how do we talk to one another in the coarse of all this?
We wonder why the church,Christian individuals, is divided. I think we can see why in these many pages.
Love God. Live peace.
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You are right in certain ways.
But although rare, it DOES happen people can change their mind on an issue. I am a testament to that on this issue.
At one time I used to think my behavior, or sin, could at some point result in my loss of Salvation. This is destructive thinking for many reasons, and actually results in a believer committing MORE sin as they try not to sin, resulting in constant unsurety if that last sin broke the camel's back.
This is counterintuitive to human reasoning. The Holy Spirit through loving, mature believers, and the Word, opened my eyes to the folly of that doctrine many yrs ago.
The whole purpose of the Law, which Paul refers to as the "ministry of death" because NO ONE can keep it and anyone attempting to justify themselves by trying to keep it will eternally die, is to point people to Jesus Christ.
Once the impetus to try as hard as I could not sin was removed, I began to sin LESS! I know. Completely counterintuitive to human logic! But as I relied more and more on JESUS to keep me saved, the pressure was off ME trying to help Jesus keep me saved, resulting in the freedom Scripture talks about.
So to some extent you are right about debates going on and on, but there are many people who sit on the sidelines not saying anything, just watching and reading, who may be deeply confused on an important issue like this one. It's not about winning an argument with the person you are engaging. It's about getting information and views out to the audience at large. And who knows? Maybe through the Holy Spirit you CAN get that person to see error.
But although rare, it DOES happen people can change their mind on an issue. I am a testament to that on this issue.
At one time I used to think my behavior, or sin, could at some point result in my loss of Salvation. This is destructive thinking for many reasons, and actually results in a believer committing MORE sin as they try not to sin, resulting in constant unsurety if that last sin broke the camel's back.
This is counterintuitive to human reasoning. The Holy Spirit through loving, mature believers, and the Word, opened my eyes to the folly of that doctrine many yrs ago.
The whole purpose of the Law, which Paul refers to as the "ministry of death" because NO ONE can keep it and anyone attempting to justify themselves by trying to keep it will eternally die, is to point people to Jesus Christ.
Once the impetus to try as hard as I could not sin was removed, I began to sin LESS! I know. Completely counterintuitive to human logic! But as I relied more and more on JESUS to keep me saved, the pressure was off ME trying to help Jesus keep me saved, resulting in the freedom Scripture talks about.
So to some extent you are right about debates going on and on, but there are many people who sit on the sidelines not saying anything, just watching and reading, who may be deeply confused on an important issue like this one. It's not about winning an argument with the person you are engaging. It's about getting information and views out to the audience at large. And who knows? Maybe through the Holy Spirit you CAN get that person to see error.
I am confused. can you help me?
How can one claim they are not depending on themselves IF they claim that the final salvation is dependent on what they do or do not do. or as you just said, it depends on US CONTINUING? or ABIDING? or not losing FAITH? is this not all dependent on you? Help me make it make sense. because it does not.
As for your OSAS and those who believe it. We must always remember just because someone says they believe something does not mean they really are saved.
There is a warning against licentiousness (jude) and those who claim they have faith but in reality never did (james 2) so we have to remember that. and not come against a group just because they are bad things that may come.
again, John said we can not live in sin.. Its impossible. so people who claim they are saved but are hearers only not doers. and live in sin.. I would not receive them as true bothers.. They have lip service that is all
Lets take a look at this.
10 He HAS delivered (or saved) us from such a deadly peril, [past]
Mind if I ask what version you are using. The greek literally says He has delivered us from a great death. I do not see the word peril in the text. However. it may not change much..
the wage of sin is death. God saved us from the wage of sin, it is also not he saved us from the past, is this what you were saying, it says in the past he saved us, This may be what you meant.
This literally says in the past he rescued us from a great death, that death was the result of our sin, our seperation from God. He made us alive in christ, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
and He will deliver (or save) us.
Again, I ask what version. as this appears to be speaking of something in the future. The text literally read he is (present tense) still delivering us (from that same death)
In Him we have placed our hope that He WILL YET AGAIN deliver (save) us,
Faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen. This hope is what a believer places his faith in God. it is his assurance. the word Hope here is not a wish washy hope. it is in the perfect tense. it is a completed hope. which feeds a completed or perfect faith. And that hope is that not only has he rescued is, Not only is he still rescuing us. but he will rescue us from this great death.
This is the assurance that we who believe in eternal security (what you call OSAS) and are truly saved place our hope on.
Its not that we are rescued because we continue in him, Or we abide in him. or we don't lose faith (again, this hope is perfect tense. it is complete in us. it will not fade away because it is based on truth)
Again, John said later, I have written these things to you so you may KNOW that you have eternaL LIFE. again, this know is in the perfect tense. it is a completed action. It is why we continue to believe in his name. because it not based on us, or word. our ability. our actions. it based on the promises of God.
The apostle John gives us great hope. not based on us, but on God
1 John 5: 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Again, How can you say this?
You just admitted. you believe your eternal destiny is based on you continuing, you abiding, and you not losing faith?
Why do you not have the HOPE (perfect) That not only has god saved you from such a great death, he is saving you right now where you stand and he will save you in the end? Why do you doubt God will do that.
Now I am sure you will deny the fact that you doubt it, But you preach it, and you appose those who do not doubt it, and place their faith and hope in the testimony and word of God. that God will keep his promise. no matter what.
How can one claim they are not depending on themselves IF they claim that the final salvation is dependent on what they do or do not do. or as you just said, it depends on US CONTINUING? or ABIDING? or not losing FAITH? is this not all dependent on you? Help me make it make sense. because it does not.
As for your OSAS and those who believe it. We must always remember just because someone says they believe something does not mean they really are saved.
There is a warning against licentiousness (jude) and those who claim they have faith but in reality never did (james 2) so we have to remember that. and not come against a group just because they are bad things that may come.
again, John said we can not live in sin.. Its impossible. so people who claim they are saved but are hearers only not doers. and live in sin.. I would not receive them as true bothers.. They have lip service that is all
Lets take a look at this.
10 He HAS delivered (or saved) us from such a deadly peril, [past]
Mind if I ask what version you are using. The greek literally says He has delivered us from a great death. I do not see the word peril in the text. However. it may not change much..
the wage of sin is death. God saved us from the wage of sin, it is also not he saved us from the past, is this what you were saying, it says in the past he saved us, This may be what you meant.
This literally says in the past he rescued us from a great death, that death was the result of our sin, our seperation from God. He made us alive in christ, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
and He will deliver (or save) us.
Again, I ask what version. as this appears to be speaking of something in the future. The text literally read he is (present tense) still delivering us (from that same death)
In Him we have placed our hope that He WILL YET AGAIN deliver (save) us,
Faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen. This hope is what a believer places his faith in God. it is his assurance. the word Hope here is not a wish washy hope. it is in the perfect tense. it is a completed hope. which feeds a completed or perfect faith. And that hope is that not only has he rescued is, Not only is he still rescuing us. but he will rescue us from this great death.
This is the assurance that we who believe in eternal security (what you call OSAS) and are truly saved place our hope on.
Its not that we are rescued because we continue in him, Or we abide in him. or we don't lose faith (again, this hope is perfect tense. it is complete in us. it will not fade away because it is based on truth)
Again, John said later, I have written these things to you so you may KNOW that you have eternaL LIFE. again, this know is in the perfect tense. it is a completed action. It is why we continue to believe in his name. because it not based on us, or word. our ability. our actions. it based on the promises of God.
The apostle John gives us great hope. not based on us, but on God
1 John 5: 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Again, How can you say this?
You just admitted. you believe your eternal destiny is based on you continuing, you abiding, and you not losing faith?
Why do you not have the HOPE (perfect) That not only has god saved you from such a great death, he is saving you right now where you stand and he will save you in the end? Why do you doubt God will do that.
Now I am sure you will deny the fact that you doubt it, But you preach it, and you appose those who do not doubt it, and place their faith and hope in the testimony and word of God. that God will keep his promise. no matter what.
thank you and I agree
I will ask you the same question I asked another poster. correct me if I am wrong. or help me understand
How can one claim they are not depending on themselves IF they claim that the final salvation is dependent on what they do or do not do. or as you just said, it depends on US CONTINUING? or ABIDING? or not losing FAITH?
I will add to my post to you since you have mentioned it, that you have to Co-Operate with God. or work on your salvation (all of you)
is this not all dependent on you? Help me make it make sense. because it does not.
I will ask you the same question I asked another poster. correct me if I am wrong. or help me understand
How can one claim they are not depending on themselves IF they claim that the final salvation is dependent on what they do or do not do. or as you just said, it depends on US CONTINUING? or ABIDING? or not losing FAITH?
I will add to my post to you since you have mentioned it, that you have to Co-Operate with God. or work on your salvation (all of you)
is this not all dependent on you? Help me make it make sense. because it does not.