Secret Rapture

[popeye]

Imagine a doctrine that hates a song about the return of Jesus..

Well he is coming. And I love his coming,and pray to be worthy as Directed by the King Jesus.
I will enjoy the promise of God.
"..........I go and prepare a place for you in heaven,that where I am you may be also..."
I personally reject the doctrine of men's minds that would disenfranchise the promise of God,in favor of some mental gymnastics that rejects the promise of the business God has with his body in heaven.



[video=youtube;C1M6BlZyieo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1M6BlZyieo[/video]

 

[PlainWord]

This is backwards.

For example,Look at the types concerning the messiah

Jesus did not act according to the types,or to shed light on the ot.

Those animal sacrifices POINTED TO JESUS.
Using your logic,Jesus only acted to fulfill types,instead of him acting sovereignly,with the types as a signpost.

IOW you have the signposts being greater than the object they point to.

I guess you won't answer my question. Instead you make other assertions about my question that I didn't make. What's this talk about my thinking the signs are bigger than the Return of Christ. I didn't say that and I didn't suggest that. The Return of the Lord will be the biggest thing EVER.

Jesus gave signs that lead up to His return. I'm just trying to explain what those signs were/are.

 

[PlainWord]

Hi PlainWord,

1. The "Earth" as used in Rev 13 has a limited region meaning and does not represent the whole planet.

There is nothing in the scripture that would support the use of the word "Earth" as being restricted to a limited region. On the other hand, it does specify all people as being under the control of the beast:

"And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;"

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Regarding the above, "every tribe, people, tongue and nation," would demonstrates that it is the entire earth and its inhabitants that is involved.

2. The "Beast of the Sea" as used in Rev is a reconstituted Islamic empire.

There is nothing in the scripture to link the kingdom of the beast to the Islamic Empire. I would just be conjecture on your part.

3. The "Harlot" is Radical Jihadist Islam.

Radical Jihadist Islam does not fit any of the scriptural criteria regarding Mystery Babylon/Harlot. First of all scripture states that "The Woman" is a city. Also, the seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits, which is her headquarters. She is wearing purple and scarlet and glittering with gold. Islam fits none of these. We have to go by the clues that God has given us.

4. The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan aimed at Israel.

Jesus is the one who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and the bowls, meaning that Just as scripture states, Jesus is the One who is trampling the wine press of the wrath of God. It is not Satan's wrath, but the fulfillment of the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

5. The Great Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God, which comes after the GT.

The entire last seven years, which is the fulfillment of the prophecy of seventy seven year periods is the time of God's wrath. After the GT Jesus returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

6. God's wrath is in direct response avenging Satan's attack on Israel.

God's wrath is the fulfillment of the seventieth seven and the decimation of the population of the entire earth and the dismantling of all human government will be the result of God's wrath. The events of Satan and the beast are apart of that time of wrath.

7. The Wrath of God is aimed specifically at the Beast and it's followers so it too is regional.

See #1 - The wrath of God is against all the ungodly, the arrogant, the proud, etc.

8. The Church is all but gone from the region of God's Wrath before the wrath begins.

The church is gone prior to the first seal being opened and that because the church is not appointed to suffer wrath and Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.

9. John extensively uses OT symbols used by the prophets in writing Revelation.

John is not using anything of his own imagination, but is doing what God told him to do, which is to write down everything that he heard and saw (Rev.1:19).

Ahwatukee,

Thanks for responding. Let's take each point one by one.

1. The "Earth" as used in Rev 13 has a limited region meaning and does not represent the whole planet.

Consider Daniel's vision of the Ram and Goat from Dan 8. We don't have to guess which Kingdoms are represented by the Ram and Goat because Gabriel tells Daniel.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece.

So obviously the Goat is Greece lead by Alexander the Great. Now, if you didn't know this and though this was in the future, how would you interpret the phrase above, "across the surface of the whole earth?" Did Alexander cross the entire planet? Is Greece to Persia the "WHOLE EARTH/PLANET?"

Regarding the above, "every tribe, people, tongue and nation," would demonstrates that it is the entire earth and its inhabitants that is involved.

Daniel uses a very similar phrase to that makes it sound like it is everyone on the planet when we know indeed it was just those in the Kingdom of Babylon. This from Dan 3:

“To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, [SUP]5 [/SUP]that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”

So ask yourself, in terms of the known world, did anything major change from the time of Daniel in the 500s BC to John in the first century AD? I'd submit to you, not a lot.

 

[PlainWord]

2. The "Beast of the Sea" as used in Rev is a reconstituted Islamic empire.

There is nothing in the scripture to link the kingdom of the beast to the Islamic Empire. I would just be conjecture on your part.

2. The "Beast of the Sea" as used in Rev is a reconstituted Islamic empire.

You have to understand that when John discusses the "beasts" in Rev 13, he is absolutely using the symbolism of Dan 7. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. Daniel discusses 4 beasts, the Lion, Bear, Leopard and the Dreadful and Terrible. John makes mention of a singular beast in Rev 13 made up of the first three:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.

History tells us that Daniel's beasts were: LION=BABYLON, BEAR=MEDO-PERSIA, LEOPARD=GREECE. Daniel gives us the same beasts in reverse order and tells us they are one. This is a complicated subject with the 7 heads and 10 horns but an understanding of this is that these were historical kingdoms and all were controlled by Satan. Daniel further tells that one of the horns on this beast received a mortal wound, yet lived. That means one of the 7 historic empires didn't "die" or lose power as the other 6 did, but rather that its power was taken away and it appeared dead but returns. Again, this would require a long explanation but I am convinced that the 7th Beast of Revelation was the Ottoman Empire.

The Ottoman Empire was of course ISLAMIC. It went away in 1922, stripped of his powers and broken up by the victors of WWI. The region of the LION BEAR LEOPARD is of course north of Israel and these countries are all Muslim. The Harlot then must be ISLAM as it is their religion. ISLAM is opposed to Israel and Christianity. It all fits perfectly.

 

[PlainWord]

3. The "Harlot" is Radical Jihadist Islam.

Radical Jihadist Islam does not fit any of the scriptural criteria regarding Mystery Babylon/Harlot. First of all scripture states that "The Woman" is a city. Also, the seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits, which is her headquarters. She is wearing purple and scarlet and glittering with gold. Islam fits none of these. We have to go by the clues that God has given us.

3. The "Harlot" is Radical Jihadist Islam.

Indeed the "Woman" or Harlot which means False Religion has a City which reigns over those who follow her and that city is Mecca. It is called the "GREAT CITY" right?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Mecca is a Great City to Islam. "GREAT" What do Muslims say? Allahu Akbar = Allah (God) is Great!! Their City is "Great." Just as the men of Ephesus used to chant, "DIANA is GREAT" so do the Muslims chant "Allah is Great." The Men of Ephesus used to worship an image that fell from the sky. Muslims worship the Kaaba Stone, a meteor that fell from the sky.

Acts 19:35

And when the city clerk had quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple guardian of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Zeus?

All Muslims are required to make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their lifetimes. This city is located in the desert or wilderness located near a very busy shipping lane, the Red Sea.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness.

John did not recognize the Woman because it would be 500 more years before ISLAM was founded in Mecca by the False Prophet, Muhammad. What religion has a "False Prophet?"

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

Muslims have the most kings of any religion.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication...

The most interesting part of this is it appears the 10 horns on the Beast or Kingdom that is carrying/supporting this false religion will actually turn on its religion and destroy it.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

These 10 horns are leaders which have no country to lead. These leaders hate their own religion, they turn on it, they destroy it. ISLAM was founded supposedly as a peaceful religion. Is there a group today who has distorted the teachings of ISLAM into a religion that teaches that all who will not covert are to be killed?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

What is "an image?" In this case, it is a copy of the original. The Ottoman Empire is estimated to have killed 50 million Christians. ISIS declared its caliphate on June 29, 2014. ISIS calls itself "the ISLAMIC STATE," a state based on radical ISLAM. Another word for "worship" is "serve." Those who will not serve ISIS are to be killed. ISIS is operating in 2 of the 3 countries foretold by John. Right now, ISIS and IRAN are in opposition.

ISIS hates the Saudis, where Mecca is located. They have vowed to destroy Mecca and Saudi Arabia. King Abdullah, before his death, was so terrified of ISIS that he pulled a Trump and started building a wall across his northern boarder to keep ISIS out. Could ISIS, Iran or Turkey be the King of the North? Could Saudi Arabia be the King of the South? Is there any other countries to the north and south of Israel who are not Islamic?

ISIS may not end up being the entity that reconstitutes the Ottomans. It could be Iran, it could be Turkey. But one thing is for sure, it will be ISLAMIC.

 

[popeye]

I guess you won't answer my question. Instead you make other assertions about my question that I didn't make. What's this talk about my thinking the signs are bigger than the Return of Christ. I didn't say that and I didn't suggest that. The Return of the Lord will be the biggest thing EVER.

Jesus gave signs that lead up to His return. I'm just trying to explain what those signs were/are.

You gave 9 points.
You asked if they proved your views to my satisfaction.
I addressed no. 9.

When you addres rev as " ..John using symbols...",that is like saying rev is man explaining heaven.

So,yes,you have the cart before the horse.

You also made 2 other points concerning the wrath/trib/gt thingy.

Look at the big picture.
In the ot,time and time again God judges his covenant people. Mainly through OTHER NATIONS.SATANIC NATIONS.

So,your wrath,trib deal is only indirectly true.
We have Jesus kicking off the GT with the release of satanic horsemen.
The judgment is unprecedented.
It is his wrath INDIRECTLY.

So that is about 3 of 9 points,which includes your question.

Any questions?

 

[PlainWord]

4. The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan aimed at Israel.

Jesus is the one who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and the bowls, meaning that Just as scripture states, Jesus is the One who is trampling the wine press of the wrath of God. It is not Satan's wrath, but the fulfillment of the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

4. The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan aimed at Israel.

Jesus indeed was the only one worthy to "loosen the seals." A common misconception is that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all part of the Tribulation. Another common misconception is that the Great Tribulation is the same thing as the Wrath of God. Nothing tells us that the Tribulation = the Wrath of God. Further, nothing tells us that the all 7 of the seals, trumps and bowls are the Tribulation and that these events all take place in 3.5 or 7 years.

Unless you are prepared to believe that God killed the souls under the alter and that God is the Angel from the Bottomless pit, Abaddon or Apollyon, then they cannot all be the Wrath of God. God does not kill His saints and God does not lead the Locusts.

Christ merely opens the seals revealing events on earth which John records. We are not told of any wrath until the 6th seal. The 4th seal is ISLAMIC if one understands the symbols. The 5th seal shows the saints killed by the 4th seal and the 6th seal is the revenge or wrath. Who does Islam kill or will kill? Who do they hate? Jews and Christians? Is there any other global religion who hates and wishes to kill all Jews and Christians?

Where does Jesus locate the Great Tribulation and what triggers it?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Clearly the Abomination of Desolation is the trigger for the Great Tribulation. Is this Abomination of God, Jesus or Satan? I would argue Satan. Who are to flee? Those in Judea??? Where is Judea? Is Judea the entire planet? Of course not. This sure sounds to me like Christ is warning His People to flee Israel when they see the A of D. So the question begs, "Is Jesus warning of His wrath or is he warning of Satan's wrath?

Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The warning Woe is given to the earth and sea. Do the fish need to take warning? Of course not!! Who lives on the earth and sea? Muslims do, who else? Just who does the Devil go after?

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

This woman is Israel. The same place Jesus tells us the Tribulation will be aimed at.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

Do we not see the saints begging for revenge? I already explained who "those dwelling on the earth are." Paul confirms that God's people are under duress before Christ returns in 2 Thes 1:

that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; [SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul teaches that the vengeance happens when? When the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven and not before. What does Daniel say?

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

A nation is under stress. A nation is being persecuted. A nation is going through Tribulation. Luke teaches:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Jesus puts a stop to it. Jesus shortens those days of tribulation. Zechariah agrees.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

You see, this Tribulation is not happening to the whole planet and certainly God is not behind it. God allows it so that His people, those left, will return to Him.

In summary, The Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan aimed at Israel. Satan goes on a killing spree in Israel using his Islamic beast nations. He will kill everyone there if God doesn't stop it. Christ returns after the Tribulation and pours out His wrath on the earth.

 

[PlainWord]

5. The Great Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God, which comes after the GT.

The entire last seven years, which is the fulfillment of the prophecy of seventy seven year periods is the time of God's wrath. After the GT Jesus returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

This is a misreading of Dan 9.

There is no break of weeks in Daniel 9 taught and I challenge you to prove it. I will prove there is no break.

“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city..."

“Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

So we know that from the command to rebuild until Messiah appears as Messiah is 7+62 or 69 weeks of years. It doesn't say "Until Messiah dies", it simply says, "until Messiah (appears.)" So after Messiah appears there is one week remaining.

What is to occur in the 70 weeks of years?

1. To finish the transgression,
2. To make an end of sins,
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. To seal up vision and prophecy,
6. And to anoint the Most Holy.

The last of these things happened here:

Mark 14: And being in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, as He sat at the table, a woman came having an alabaster flask of very costly oil of spikenard. Then she broke the flask and poured it on His head...She has done what she could. She has come beforehand to anoint My body for burial.

Messiah is nearing the end of His ministry and about to go to the Cross. The last of the 6 things was just fulfilled as Messiah was anointed.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

We are now in the middle of week 70. 69.5 weeks have taken place. A lot of people think the above is speaking of a deceptive AntiChrist tricking the world. What a shame to have this so badly misunderstood to mean something sinister when it fact it is a thing of beauty. What covenant was confirmed and who confirmed it?

Matthew 26:28

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Luke 22:20
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

It is Jesus confirming the new covenant that He made with many as Paul teaches. Daniel said, "he shall confirm a covenant with many." Paul says:

Galatians 3:17

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

Christ confirms the covenant!!

You see Christ was supposed to minister for 1 week or 7 years. But half way through Satan cut the week short.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

When Christ went to the cross 3.5 years into His ministry he brought an end to the need for sacrifice and offering as Christ became the sacrifice for everyone who believes. We don't need to guess about this because Paul teaches this too using the same verbiage:

Ephesians 5:2

And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

Christ gave Himself as an offering and sacrifice ending the need to ever again offer an animal up. So Christ is cut-off at Week 69.5, then what?

Then Titus: And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Romans nailed Christ to the Cross. Then about 37-40 years later they torched the Temple and the people were scattered. But note, neither the temple nor the scattering were mentioned as events to be fulfilled during the 70 weeks. The 70 weeks, less the half week that was cut short, just as God will cut Satan's Tribulation short (tit for tat), ended at the Cross. Daniel then jumps ahead to the end of the age but this has nothing to do with the 70 weeks.

 

[PlainWord]

You gave 9 points.
You asked if they proved your views to my satisfaction.
I addressed no. 9.

When you addres rev as " ..John using symbols...",that is like saying rev is man explaining heaven.

So,yes,you have the cart before the horse.

You also made 2 other points concerning the wrath/trib/gt thingy.

Look at the big picture.
In the ot,time and time again God judges his covenant people. Mainly through OTHER NATIONS.SATANIC NATIONS.

So,your wrath,trib deal is only indirectly true.
We have Jesus kicking off the GT with the release of satanic horsemen.
The judgment is unprecedented.
It is his wrath INDIRECTLY.

So that is about 3 of 9 points,which includes your question.

Any questions?

Man has been writing with symbols forever. We do it in our language with descriptive literature all the time too just to make the speech more colorful.

Example:
The sunset filled the entire sky with the deep color of rubies, setting the clouds ablaze.

I read the above and see a bright and vivid red sky created by an amazing sunset with the light from the sunset making the clouds appear red. If you read the above in Revelation, you would think the sunset ignited the clouds with real fire and burned them up.

In Revelation we are dealing with 2,000 year old text written in a different language and customs with the author in fear for his life being shown incredible things and trying to relate them to people in a way only they could understand. You and others fail to recognize this because you've been programmed to take the entire Bible as literal because some pastor once taught you that makes the Bible pure.

Most, if not all, of the OT authors wrote in a very poetic and dramatic fashion. Nathan and Gad who wrote 2 Samuel used symbols and descriptive literature to make the language come to life. David quotes them in some of his writings. John then quotes David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and others using the symbols common in his language and to his readers. Many of the apostles quote the OT prophets. Peter did it also when he quoted Joel.

Take the below passage from 2 Sam 22 for instance and look at the use of descriptive language:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils. [SUP]17 [/SUP]“He sent from above, He took me,
He drew me out of many waters.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He delivered me from my strong enemy,
From those who hated me;
For they were too strong for me.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
But the Lord was my support.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]He also brought me out into a broad place;
He delivered me because He delighted in me.

Now was David really drowning in a sea of water or was he surrounded by bad people who wished to kill him? Was he literally snatched up and taken to an open field or was given victory over his enemies and now felt not closed in and was instead free, and unafraid, his enemies removed?

When Jeremiah says this:

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

Are the words coming out of his mouth really turning into fire and burning up the people he's speaking to? Of course not. Rather, Jeremiah used strong words to rebuke the sinful Israel and Judah. John was familiar with this passage so when he discussed the two witnesses of Rev 11, he used the same imagery.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.

I read the above and apply Jeremiah to it. I see the "two witnesses" (which are the two churches) preaching the gospel which convicts the sinner. You read it and see two fire breathing men shooting flames from their mouths and burning up people.

Revelation is loaded with these OT symbols especially in the seals, trumpets and bowls. There are two very different ways of seeing Revelation with completely different meanings. Even Jesus used symbols extensively in His parables. He did so to disguise the true meaning from those he did not want to understand. Jesus did this all the time. Not only in parables but when He discussed His body as bread and his blood as wine. You miss so much when you fail to recognize the symbols and what they mean.

 

[popeye]

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

Are the words coming out of his mouth really turning into fire and burning up the people he's speaking to? Of course not. Rather, Jeremiah used strong words to rebuke the sinful Israel and Judah. John was familiar with this passage so when he discussed the two witnesses of Rev 11, he used the same imagery.

That's like saying because Jesus is the lamb of God,every time we see a lamb in the OT it is LITERALLY JESUS.

You are running with that fire thingy to suit what you have believed earlier,not from biblical elucidation.

 

[tanakh]

Who are the "false god" and "false prophet" of Judaism?

John makes clear that the Harlot religion has a false god and false prophet and that those worshiping this religion were deceived by them.

Rev 18: [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

Sorry, Judaism does not fit. Here are the main reasons Judaism doesn't fit:

1.Among smallest Religion <.5%
2.Not part of a 7 kingdom succession
3.Few peoples/nations worship her
4.Not Similar to former Babylon
5.Not Located in a Wilderness/Desert
6.John did not recognize her
7.No Kings of Earth Fornicate with her
8.Doesn’t Behead People
9.Not Near a busy seaport
10.Few get rich from selling her “goods”
11.Merchants would rejoice at demise
12.Can’t be destroyed as Christ returns
to Jerusalem and reigns from there


Paul instructs us clearly about Islam and the Jews. He compares and contrasts in Gal 4:22-31.


Paul refers to the "Children of Ishmael" as:

1. Sons of the Bondwoman (Captives)
2. Born of Flesh
3. the Desolate
4. In Labor (Pregnant)
5. With many children though no husband

These are all terms and concepts used by both Jesus and John to describe those who follow the Beast

Judaism is not from the pit of Hell its based on the Old testament. The books of Moses give a broad basis as to how to live a righteous life. Much of Jewish tradition is to do with working out the details of how to follow Gods commandments in a practical day to day basis and has developed over centuries of study. A few examples of this are how to conduct a wedding or how to interpret reparation for the the injury to a neighbors Ox in a modern day situation where oxen are owned by very few people This has to be reinterpreted for damage to someones vehicle. There are many examples
similar to these. What I disagree with is the idea that the teachings and debates of the Rabbis are on the same level of the Books of Moses ie Torah. Faith in God still plays a large part in Jewish life, although I understand that salvation is through
belief in Christ. We should pray that their eyes are opened and that they see Christ in the Torah which they place so much devotion to.
.

 

[ggs7]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[PlainWord]

That's like saying because Jesus is the lamb of God,every time we see a lamb in the OT it is LITERALLY JESUS.

You are running with that fire thingy to suit what you have believed earlier,not from biblical elucidation.

Not every time. It is clear when the imagery is present and when it is not. "Fire from the mouth burning people" is used extensively in the OT and NT. This of course means that the "words are so powerful as to convict the sinner." The mouth can be both good and bad as we see here:

James 3:10
Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.

In fact most of the time the word, "mouth" is used it deals with the spoken word and not to eat. The concept of "destroying" one's enemies by the spoken word, in this case mouth" is a well taught Biblical principle.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Psalm 18:8
Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it.

Jeremiah 5:14
Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

We've had this discussion about the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 before. If you take it literally then you are believing that 2 actual fire breathing men are going to stand on the temple mount witnessing, other people (Muslims obviously as they are the only ones up there besides tourists) will try to stop them. The 2 witnesses will use flame throwers from their mouths like dragons and literally burn their enemies alive. After 3.5 years of doing this (presumably nobody can stop them with conventional weapons, missile strikes what have you) then the earth will open up and a nasty beast will ascend from a pit and finally kill the 2 men. That's what we are told, if you take it literally. If you take this literally then you must believe that Jeremiah was also a fire breathing dragon.

 

[PlainWord]

Judaism is not from the pit of Hell its based on the Old testament. The books of Moses give a broad basis as to how to live a righteous life. Much of Jewish tradition is to do with working out the details of how to follow Gods commandments in a practical day to day basis and has developed over centuries of study. A few examples of this are how to conduct a wedding or how to interpret reparation for the the injury to a neighbors Ox in a modern day situation where oxen are owned by very few people This has to be reinterpreted for damage to someones vehicle. There are many examples
similar to these. What I disagree with is the idea that the teachings and debates of the Rabbis are on the same level of the Books of Moses ie Torah. Faith in God still plays a large part in Jewish life, although I understand that salvation is through
belief in Christ. We should pray that their eyes are opened and that they see Christ in the Torah which they place so much devotion to.
.

I agree with you. I was debating with another poster who thinks Judaism is Mystery Babylon. I was pointing out to him the folly of such thinking. Mystery Babylon is very clearly ISLAM. There should really be no debate about it as ISLAM fits every single description given to it right down to the location of it's great city being in the wilderness of Arabia.

 

[popeye]

I agree with you. I was debating with another poster who thinks Judaism is Mystery Babylon. I was pointing out to him the folly of such thinking. Mystery Babylon is very clearly ISLAM. There should really be no debate about it as ISLAM fits every single description given to it right down to the location of it's great city being in the wilderness of Arabia.

Doesn't fit.

Arabs make nothing. So sailors weeping over the loss of goods fits USA,JAPAN,CHINA.

Kings corrupted by her fornication would be USA,OR THE VATICAN .

 

[popeye]

Babylon is guesswork.
So is the AC.

JUST NOT ENOUGH THERE TO NAIL IT DOWN.

 

[popeye]

The nation that others mimic is the US.

Babylon is a fornicator. She morally corrupts the world.

That almost has to be the US,OR THE VATICAN.

 

[PlainWord]

Doesn't fit.

Arabs make nothing. So sailors weeping over the loss of goods fits USA,JAPAN,CHINA.

Kings corrupted by her fornication would be USA,OR THE VATICAN .

What kings are in the USA? Now you don't want to be literal? Muslims have the most Kings.

They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city...

Throwing dust on one's head is a middle eastern tradition. When's the last time you saw an American, or an Asian, or an Italian mourn that way?

...all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

What carries Saudi Oil? Tankers? Actually, it isn't the cargo mentioned. The types of things mentioned are purchased by Saudi Kings. The last of these things really gives it away.

..and bodies and souls of men.

The Saudis deal in slavery. Very few nations do but the Gulf Arab States are very much engaged in slavery and forced prostitution. Just Google it.

Inside the World of Gulf State Slavery - The Daily Beast

Over A Million People Are Living As Slaves In Saudi Arabia, And Obama Never Once Has Mentioned This. Instead He Is Too Busy Blaming America For Racism - Walid Shoebat

Saudi Offers "Castrated African Slave" for Sale on Facebook | Frontpage Mag

Yeah, most Arabs make nothing but their kings are among the wealthiest men in the world. You have the whole spectrum. Who are gathered?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

Again, who has slaves?

 

[PlainWord]

The nation that others mimic is the US.

Babylon is a fornicator. She morally corrupts the world.

That almost has to be the US,OR THE VATICAN.

Isa 13:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]It will never be inhabited,
Nor will it be settled from generation to generation;
Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there,
Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there.

Do Arabians pitch tents in Arabia or in New York City? I was just in NYC a few weeks ago and didn't see a lot of sheep or shepherds. Not saying they aren't there, I just didn't see any. Didn't see any in Rome where I was there in 2011 either.

 

[DP]

I agree with you. I was debating with another poster who thinks Judaism is Mystery Babylon. I was pointing out to him the folly of such thinking. Mystery Babylon is very clearly ISLAM. There should really be no debate about it as ISLAM fits every single description given to it right down to the location of it's great city being in the wilderness of Arabia.

It's neither Judaism nor Islam. It's the worshipers of Lucifer that are the ones actually pulling the strings behind the curtain. And though many think Albert Pike's 1871 letter to Mazzini is fake, it sure looks like Zionism and Islam today are being drawn against each other in preparation for another world war like Pike said would occur. And of course who do we see behind both Islam and the Jews, supporting both of them with military goods? Socialist leaders and globalist bankers in the western nations.