Secret Rapture

[PlainWord]

Man! You have no idea what is coming! I'll just use one example to kill your idea that the wrath of God is restricted to Israel:

I wonder if you actually read what I write??? Show me where I said "the wrath of God is restricted to Israel" I never said that anywhere. I said that the Great Tribulation is aimed at Israel and that the GT is the Wrath of Satan. God's wrath comes after the GT and is aimed at those who were persecuting and killing God's People. I think I've been abundantly clear about this.

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."

Regarding the above, do you think that when God causes the sun to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, that it will only affect Israel and the surrounding area or the entire planet?

All of the Bowls are the Wrath of God. I have been saying this also. However, what is the "Light of the World" represented by? I've been saying (and I know you aren't listening) that John takes his symbols from the OT prophets with Isaiah being the one he uses most. The 4th Bowl comes right out of Isa 30:26:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun,
And the light of the sun will be sevenfold,
As the light of seven days,
In the day that the Lord binds up the bruise of His people
And heals the stroke of their wound.

Let's say the average temperature in and around Israel is 75. If the sun gave off 7 times it's normal heat or raised the temperature by 7 fold it would be 525 degrees outside. That would kill everyone on the planet is less than 1 minute. We know that nobody is killed by this plague because they curse the name of the Lord after.

Isaiah tells us that this increase in the light of the sun "binds up" or heals Israel. How would burning them alive heal them? Again, you have no know your Biblical symbols. Sometimes John tells us what things mean, sometimes you have to go to the root passage (in this case Isa 30) to pick up the meaning.

John says: "and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. (KJV)"

Keep reading in Isa 30: [SUP]27 [/SUP]Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire..."

What is "FIRE" in this case? It's the Lord's tongue.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

It will not be good to be an Assyrian when this happens. Do you see now how this "heat" is directed at a specifically named group?

"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed"

Regarding the above, the "something like a huge mountain" is most likely an asteroid and is all ablaze because in John's vision he sees it coming through the earth's atmosphere, which is why it is all ablaze and it hits in one of the oceans. The result will be amazingly huge waves from the impact killing all of the creatures in that body of water which will equal a third of all the creatures over all the earth. And all of the ships in that body of water will be destroyed equaling a third over all the earth. Now, do you still think that this plague is only speaking about Israel?

LOL. You must have skipped the post where I explained this. This one comes from Jer 51:


Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the Lord, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

Go ahead and see if you can figure out the symbolism here.

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Are you taking the above literally also? Are we all going to become cannibals? Seriously???

You need to get away from whoever is giving you these teachings and reread Revelation for yourself and do your own studies, because everything that you are claiming is false. That entire last seven years is God's doing and not Satan's.

I don't want this to sound hurtful my friend but you are literally in Kindergarten with your understanding of Revelation. You don't understand one single Biblical symbol therefore you haven't a clue about who or what the seals, trumpets and bowls represent. If you did, you wouldn't make such an absurd statement. God is not behind ISLAM and their radical killings and beheadings. He allows it, as He does everything, but He is not causing it, Satan is. God does not set up the Abomination of Desolation which marks the start of the Great Tribulation, Satan's people do that.

God is clearly not behind the 5th Trumpet which even you should be able to see with your limited discernment.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Do you think the above describes God? I'd love to be able to help you understand Revelation but not sure if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[PlainWord]

That's where you're hiding OT history, for the tares represent especially the crept in nations of the Canaanites that Israel disobeyed God in failing to destroy (Judges 2 & 3). God said He would leave them among Israel to test them to see if His people would follow Him, or not. Per Judges 9, a group of Canaanites became bondservants in Israel because of Joshua's oath with them. In 1 Kings 9, they are bondservants still among Israel, living among Israel. Per 1 Chron.2:55, the Kenites of the land of Canaan became the scribes of Israel in charge of keeping God's Holy Writ. Many of those bondservants worked their way up as temple servants (Nethinims) and priests by the time of Ezra. And during Judah's 70 years Babylon captivity, many of the people of Judah took wives of the Canaanites, and later agreed to put them away after the return to Jerusalem, but did they all really succeed in that? Those are who the "tares" especially represent, the crept in unawares of Jude 1, especially among the house of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi).

And then there's Jacob's brother Esau who profaned God's Birthright selling it to Jacob for a bowl of red beans. After Jacob had received the blessing of Abraham from his father Isaac, Esau went in to his father and asked for the Birthright blessing too, crying and snibbling. Esau didn't seek God, but was a wild man. Some of those crept into Judah's stay also after the nation of Edom was destroyed, but the rest of them migrated elsewhere, having taken wives of both Ishmael's seed and of the Canaanites.

And then there's the spiritual sons of Cain which Jesus directly pointed to in John 8 when rebuking the scribes and Pharisees.

DP, Buddy!! LOL. Cain is not the father of the Canaanites. Canaan is the Father of the Canaanites. And just who was Canaan? Canaan was the son of Ham and the uncle of Nimrod who founded Babel, the original Babylon.

Canaan slept with Noah's wife. Canaan was cursed by Noah. Canaan ended up in the Promised Land. Once in the Promised Land, the Children of Israel soon started worshiping the gods of the Canaanites. They actually did far worse than that as David teaches:

Psalm 106:28
They joined themselves also to Ba’al of Peor, And ate sacrifices made to the dead. 34 They did not destroy the peoples, Concerning whom the Lord had commanded them, 35 But they mingled with the Gentiles And learned their works; 36 They served their idols, Which became a snare to them. 37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus they were defiled by their own works, And played the harlot by their own deeds.

Anyway, the Tares growing alongside the wheat trace their roots back to Canaan even today. Who are these people and what religion do they follow? To confirm that the peoples in and around Israel who have been tormenting them for millennia are the Tares, one only needs to read the below passage from Zech 14 to make the connection.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

The Canaanites are removed, "taken by the angels to the fire", so to speak.

 

[PlainWord]

He followed a trail.

Invested too heavily in the Muslim thingy.

The Muslim dimension can go several ways

He is locked into "one way"

Absolutely locked in.

He seems brilliant. But brilliant can be a road block.

Revelation is loaded with this "Muslim thingy." Since Abraham begat Ishmael with Hagar, the Bondwoman, this Muslim thingy and their descendants have been the anti-God, alter-ego to the Chosen. If you still cannot make the connection after 4,000 years of history and see how nothing has changed, and nothing is going to change when it comes to identifying the villains then I guess you never will.

I don't know why you seem to still be struggling with this. You understand which countries attack and nearly wipe out Israel in the last days, don't you? You understand what faith all the nations are of which surround Israel and that they have an unparalleled hatred of the Jewish state, don't you? Israel is literally an Island surrounded by a sea of Muslims.

You understand that at the core, ISLAM was created by Satan as the alternative to Christianity as an almost mirror image of it, don't you? You see the parallels of how today's Muslims worship compared to how the Babylonians worshiped, don't you?

Dan 3:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.

When Muslims hear that racket (call to worship music) they face Mecca, fall down and worship the Temple of Allah which contains the Kaaba Stone (an image fallen from the sky) as it's cornerstone. Those in Mecca swirl around the Kaaba and they look like a "sea." They are the same descendants as those from original Babylon and they worship the same way. But hey, go ahead and keep believing that the obvious isn't it. Keep waiting for a new religion to come on to the scene started by the antichrist if you want. Meanwhile, the beheadings continue.

 

[DP]

DP, Buddy!! LOL. Cain is not the father of the Canaanites. Canaan is the Father of the Canaanites. And just who was Canaan? Canaan was the son of Ham and the uncle of Nimrod who founded Babel, the original Babylon.

Who said that Cain was the father of the Canaanites? I didn't.

Canaan slept with Noah's wife. Canaan was cursed by Noah. Canaan ended up in the Promised Land. Once in the Promised Land, the Children of Israel soon started worshiping the gods of the Canaanites. They actually did far worse than that as David teaches:

Psalm 106:28
They joined themselves also to Ba’al of Peor, And ate sacrifices made to the dead. 34 They did not destroy the peoples, Concerning whom the Lord had commanded them, 35 But they mingled with the Gentiles And learned their works; 36 They served their idols, Which became a snare to them. 37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus they were defiled by their own works, And played the harlot by their own deeds.

Anyway, the Tares growing alongside the wheat trace their roots back to Canaan even today. Who are these people and what religion do they follow? To confirm that the peoples in and around Israel who have been tormenting them for millennia are the Tares, one only needs to read the below passage from Zech 14 to make the connection.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

The Canaanites are removed, "taken by the angels to the fire", so to speak.

Note that Zech.14 verse says "... no more the Canaanitein the house of the Lord of hosts." That's a lot different than any idea of those as tares simply living in and around Israel. It means their having crept right into God's House, and here's one of the Biblical proofs:

1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV



The Kenites were among those nations in the lands of Canaan.

Then there's the Book of Ezra about the remnant of the house of Judah who took wives of the Canaanites, and Ezra sits down crying and pulling his hair.

 

[john832]

I know a lot of people believe that there will be a pre tribulation rapture of the church. For the moment, let's set aside when this event will happen, pre trib., mid trib. or post trib. or even if there is a rapture at all. For this thread please limit it to whether this event is secret or not where people left behind when the church would be taken up don't know what happened.

Can people who believe it is a secret event where no one left behind will know what happened as portrayed in several popular movies and also that has been taught from the pulpit by some pastors please give us some Bible passages that show specifically it is a secret event?


Again, this topic is about it being a secret event where people just, 'poof' disappear and it is not about the timing of such an event. I have been hunting for information that supports the secret rapture but I have yet to find anything on it.

There is no rapture, therefore there is no answer to your question.

The event that occurs at Christ's return is the resurrection.

 

[PlainWord]

Who said that Cain was the father of the Canaanites? I didn't.

Sorry, I read it quickly. You were talking about the spiritual children of Cain, my bad.

Note that Zech.14 verse says "... no more the Canaanitein the house of the Lord of hosts." That's a lot different than any idea of those as tares simply living in and around Israel. It means their having crept right into God's House, and here's one of the Biblical proofs:

1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV



The Kenites were among those nations in the lands of Canaan.

Then there's the Book of Ezra about the remnant of the house of Judah who took wives of the Canaanites, and Ezra sits down crying and pulling his hair.

A lot of the people living in the area came from Canaan's seed, to be sure.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Canaan begot Sidon his firstborn, and Heth; [SUP]16 [/SUP]the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite; [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Hivite, the Arkite, and the Sinite; [SUP]18 [/SUP]the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. Afterward the families of the Canaanites were dispersed. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. [SUP]20 [/SUP]These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.

 

[dcontroversal]

LAST TIME I CHECKED...the disciples in acts are told they would SEE HIM COME IN LIKE MANNER AS HE WENT...IN THE CLOUDS WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY......THE FOLLOWING ARE ALSO INCLUDED...in other scriptures such as Revelation 1:7, Matthew etc...
1. The religious lost
2. Every eye
3. Every tribe
4. Every kindred
Etc..
THIS IS God coming...he will kill the lights "sun, moon, stars" rip the heavens open, reveal his face and EVERYONE WILL SEE JESUS COME......no such thing as a secret rapture where we disappear and everyone wonders where we went.......serious
..

 

[DP]

Sorry, I read it quickly. You were talking about the spiritual children of Cain, my bad.



A lot of the people living in the area came from Canaan's seed, to be sure.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Canaan begot Sidon his firstborn, and Heth; [SUP]16 [/SUP]the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite; [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Hivite, the Arkite, and the Sinite; [SUP]18 [/SUP]the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. Afterward the families of the Canaanites were dispersed. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. [SUP]20 [/SUP]These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.

Not only did a lot of the people living in the lands of Judea come from the nations of Canaan, but some of them crept into God's House per the Zech.14:21 verse you... quoted. And I know you are well aware of what God commanded Israel in not allowing that, for only the Levites were to be in charge and do service in God's House. No one of foreign birth was to be allowed that position. Yet those Canaanite bondservants became the Nethinims (temple servants), and some of them priests. The Levitical priests evidently got lazy and instead allowed those bondservants to draw water and cut wood for the temple service. And the Kenites of the land of Canaan became scribes in Israel in care of God's Holy Writ? All that is revealed in what Jude 1 revealed about certain men crept in unawares, ordained of old to the condemnation of being against The Father and His Son. It is no wonder that the Jews had our Lord Jesus crucified.

 

[PlainWord]

Without the "limited earth region" you have no case.

Your cornerstone is convincing folks John believed as you do due to his limited perspective.
That concept assumes God himself had no knowledge outside Johns limited perspective.

Every man,woman,child,free,and bond.

God was mistaken......right?

Popeye,

You didn't respond to my earlier question. If I can show all of the below points have Biblical merit, will you at least go back and give this whole thing a new study?

1. The "Earth" as used in Rev 13 has a limited region meaning and does not represent the whole planet.
2. The "Beast of the Sea" as used in Rev is a reconstituted Islamic empire.
3. The "Harlot" is Radical Jihadist Islam.
4. The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan aimed at Israel.
5. The Great Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God, which comes after the GT.
6. God's wrath is in direct response avenging Satan's attack on Israel.
7. The Wrath of God is aimed specifically at the Beast and it's followers so it too is regional.
8. The Church is all but gone from the region of God's Wrath before the wrath begins.
9. John extensively uses OT symbols used by the prophets in writing Revelation.

If all of the above points are what the Bible really teaches, does the need for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture go away? I've been discussing all 9 of these points. Are there any of them that I have not proven to your satisfaction?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi PlainWord,

1. The "Earth" as used in Rev 13 has a limited region meaning and does not represent the whole planet.

There is nothing in the scripture that would support the use of the word "Earth" as being restricted to a limited region. On the other hand, it does specify all people as being under the control of the beast:

"And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;"

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Regarding the above, "every tribe, people, tongue and nation," would demonstrates that it is the entire earth and its inhabitants that is involved.

2. The "Beast of the Sea" as used in Rev is a reconstituted Islamic empire.

There is nothing in the scripture to link the kingdom of the beast to the Islamic Empire. I would just be conjecture on your part.

3. The "Harlot" is Radical Jihadist Islam.

Radical Jihadist Islam does not fit any of the scriptural criteria regarding Mystery Babylon/Harlot. First of all scripture states that "The Woman" is a city. Also, the seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits, which is her headquarters. She is wearing purple and scarlet and glittering with gold. Islam fits none of these. We have to go by the clues that God has given us.

4. The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan aimed at Israel.

Jesus is the one who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and the bowls, meaning that Just as scripture states, Jesus is the One who is trampling the wine press of the wrath of God. It is not Satan's wrath, but the fulfillment of the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

5. The Great Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God, which comes after the GT.

The entire last seven years, which is the fulfillment of the prophecy of seventy seven year periods is the time of God's wrath. After the GT Jesus returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

6. God's wrath is in direct response avenging Satan's attack on Israel.

God's wrath is the fulfillment of the seventieth seven and the decimation of the population of the entire earth and the dismantling of all human government will be the result of God's wrath. The events of Satan and the beast are apart of that time of wrath.

7. The Wrath of God is aimed specifically at the Beast and it's followers so it too is regional.

See #1 - The wrath of God is against all the ungodly, the arrogant, the proud, etc.

8. The Church is all but gone from the region of God's Wrath before the wrath begins.

The church is gone prior to the first seal being opened and that because the church is not appointed to suffer wrath and Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.

9. John extensively uses OT symbols used by the prophets in writing Revelation.

John is not using anything of his own imagination, but is doing what God told him to do, which is to write down everything that he heard and saw (Rev.1:19).

 

[popeye]

Popeye,

You didn't respond to my earlier question. If I can show all of the below points have Biblical merit, will you at least go back and give this whole thing a new study?

1. The "Earth" as used in Rev 13 has a limited region meaning and does not represent the whole planet.
2. The "Beast of the Sea" as used in Rev is a reconstituted Islamic empire.
3. The "Harlot" is Radical Jihadist Islam.
4. The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan aimed at Israel.
5. The Great Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God, which comes after the GT.
6. God's wrath is in direct response avenging Satan's attack on Israel.
7. The Wrath of God is aimed specifically at the Beast and it's followers so it too is regional.
8. The Church is all but gone from the region of God's Wrath before the wrath begins.
9. John extensively uses OT symbols used by the prophets in writing Revelation.

If all of the above points are what the Bible really teaches, does the need for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture go away? I've been discussing all 9 of these points. Are there any of them that I have not proven to your satisfaction?

9. John extensively uses OT symbols used by the prophets in writing Revelation.

This is backwards.

For example,Look at the types concerning the messiah

Jesus did not act according to the types,or to shed light on the ot.

Those animal sacrifices POINTED TO JESUS.
Using your logic,Jesus only acted to fulfill types,instead of him acting sovereignly,with the types as a signpost.

IOW you have the signposts being greater than the object they point to.

 

[DP]

Popeye,

You didn't respond to my earlier question. If I can show all of the below points have Biblical merit, will you at least go back and give this whole thing a new study?

1. The "Earth" as used in Rev 13 has a limited region meaning and does not represent the whole planet.
2. The "Beast of the Sea" as used in Rev is a reconstituted Islamic empire.
3. The "Harlot" is Radical Jihadist Islam.
4. The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan aimed at Israel.
5. The Great Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God, which comes after the GT.
6. God's wrath is in direct response avenging Satan's attack on Israel.
7. The Wrath of God is aimed specifically at the Beast and it's followers so it too is regional.
8. The Church is all but gone from the region of God's Wrath before the wrath begins.
9. John extensively uses OT symbols used by the prophets in writing Revelation.

If all of the above points are what the Bible really teaches, does the need for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture go away? I've been discussing all 9 of these points. Are there any of them that I have not proven to your satisfaction?

In Rev.17, Jesus reveals what the "waters" are upon which the Harlot sits. It's peoples, nations, tongues, and multitudes. Rev.13 tells us the dragon will have power for 42 months to deceive all nations and peoples, meaning the whole... earth (except the elect).

The 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2, is a kingdom beast, and per Daniel it will encompass all the previous beast kingdoms, including what was the old Roman empire.

The Harlot is... Jerusalem when the Antichrist comes and sets himself up as God there.

The time of "great tribulation" is a wrath by Satan and his angels aimed at ALL the saints on earth, and all those who refuse his mark.

The time of God's wrath upon the wicked on the "day of the Lord", the day of Christ's return and our gathering, will cover the whole earth, burning man's works off the earth (2 Pet.3:10). You're confusing the battle of Armageddon in the middle east with only being His wrath on that day.

Christ will protect His Church on earth through that "day of the Lord" of God's wrath upon the wicked.

Apostle John did not... use OT symbology when writing Revelation, our Lord Jesus did. It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not the Revelation of John. Christ Jesus is Who showed John the visions with symbology tied to the Books of the OT prophets, because Christ gave that through His OT prophets too. The stuff about John's writing style to hide what Jesus gave Him, like he needed to put it into some kind of code, is man's nonsense.

 

[jb]

Secret Rapture

Has this happened yet, how do we know if its happened if it's secret?

Ah, seemingly it hasn't happened yet, as I'm still upon earth and not in Heaven!

This "secret" Advent is a real slippery thing, don't you know!

 

[DP]

Has this happened yet, how do we know if its happened if it's secret?

Ah, seemingly it hasn't happened yet, as I'm still upon earth and not in Heaven!

This "secret" Advent is a real slippery thing, don't you know!

John Darby in 1830's Great Britain developed his Pre-trib Rapture theory in stages. He actually got the idea from Edward Irving's Church, as it's been documented that the Irving's Church was pushing the idea earlier per a printed issue of The Morning Watch. Darby was still post-trib when in London Edward Irving was preaching pre-trib.

Darby was who first preached pre-trib involving Jesus coming in secret to rapture His saints. Others began calling it the 'secret rapture'. But later followers of today refuse to recognize it as being a secret coming. Yet that was one of Darby's early developed ideas.

 

[jb]

John Darby in 1830's Great Britain developed his Pre-trib Rapture theory in stages. He actually got the idea from Edward Irving's Church, as it's been documented that the Irving's Church was pushing the idea earlier per a printed issue of The Morning Watch. Darby was still post-trib when in London Edward Irving was preaching pre-trib.

Darby was who first preached pre-trib involving Jesus coming in secret to rapture His saints. Others began calling it the 'secret rapture'. But later followers of today refuse to recognize it as being a secret coming. Yet that was one of Darby's early developed ideas.

Fully agree with you, I was just being a bit sarcastic in my last post, just to add to what you've written:

In 1830 Edward Irving was defrocked from the Church of England because his superiors believed that his doctrinal beliefs and preaching on the sinfulness of Christ's nature, was heretical. Irving set up his own church, which he called “The Catholic Apostolic Church,” but which others called “The Irvingites.” In his congregation there was a Scottish girl called Margaret Macdonald; and in one of his services she went into a trance and gave some prophecies. In this trance she said that she saw the people of God going up in the air to meet the Lord. From this “revelation,” Irving preached that the Church would be raptured and miss the great tribulation. Irving went over to the conferences in Ireland at Powerscourt, near Dublin, and preached this doctrine. Ironside, who writes in support of the doctrine of the pretribulation secret rapture of the Church, states that this “blessed doctrine” came to light in the Powerscourt conferences in Ireland in the 1830's. Mr Robert Baxter, a principal leader in this movement, published the doctrine of a secret coming of Christ everywhere he went, and it was quickly received. This view was also adopted by J. N. Darby, and it has been earnestly maintained by many who have studied his writings. Scofield wrote this doctrine into his notes in His Scofield Bible, and Larkin drew some charts; and the doctrine infiltrated into the brethren movement. However, Tregelles, Newton, George Muller, and many others, rejected the revelation and doctrine as unscriptural. They realised that Margaret Macdonald's “revelation,” had brought into the Church a false doctrine, which was previously unknown in Church history, and was a direct contradiction of the Scriptures.

QED!

 

[popeye]

Fully agree with you, I was just being a bit sarcastic in my last post, just to add to what you've written:

In 1830 Edward Irving was defrocked from the Church of England because his superiors believed that his doctrinal beliefs and preaching on the sinfulness of Christ's nature, was heretical. Irving set up his own church, which he called “The Catholic Apostolic Church,” but which others called “The Irvingites.” In his congregation there was a Scottish girl called Margaret Macdonald; and in one of his services she went into a trance and gave some prophecies. In this trance she said that she saw the people of God going up in the air to meet the Lord. From this “revelation,” Irving preached that the Church would be raptured and miss the great tribulation. Irving went over to the conferences in Ireland at Powerscourt, near Dublin, and preached this doctrine. Ironside, who writes in support of the doctrine of the pretribulation secret rapture of the Church, states that this “blessed doctrine” came to light in the Powerscourt conferences in Ireland in the 1830's. Mr Robert Baxter, a principal leader in this movement, published the doctrine of a secret coming of Christ everywhere he went, and it was quickly received. This view was also adopted by J. N. Darby, and it has been earnestly maintained by many who have studied his writings. Scofield wrote this doctrine into his notes in His Scofield Bible, and Larkin drew some charts; and the doctrine infiltrated into the brethren movement. However, Tregelles, Newton, George Muller, and many others, rejected the revelation and doctrine as unscriptural. They realised that Margaret Macdonald's “revelation,” had brought into the Church a false doctrine, which was previously unknown in Church history, and was a direct contradiction of the Scriptures.

QED!

Man,glad you postribbers post this nonsense so you can talk in depth doctrinally.

lets review,

Your all twisted around because some dead people reportedly said some sentences?

 

[RobbyEarl]

Find in the bible where God judges the wicked with the just? and show me.

 

[jb]

Man,glad you postribbers post this nonsense so you can talk in depth doctrinally.

lets review,

Your all twisted around because some dead people reportedly said some sentences?

That's the origin of the (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture false doctrine, so now you know its origin, I think you should go back and start searching the Scriptures for the truth with eyes, mind, heart and spirit open!

The (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture is an evil seed that the Devil put into the Church through Edward Irving and his followers and will guarantee that many Christians who believe it will, not being prepared for the Great Tribulation, backslide and go into apostasy! Matt 24v48-51, 25v1-13, Luke 6v46-49, 2Thess 2v1-3, 2Peter 1v19

 

[DP]

Find in the bible where God judges the wicked with the just? and show me.

You would have to first understand about the events to occur on the "day of the Lord", which if you follow pre-trib theory you won't know, because they wrongly teach that the "day of the Lord" is the tribulation time when it is actually the events of Christ's coming, gathering of His Church, and the pouring out His cup of wrath upon the wicked, all on the final day of this world.

 

[DP]

The Day of The Lord

The phrase "day of the Lord" in God's Word is about the events to occur on the final day of this world. It includes the event of Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church, and the pouring out of His cup of wrath upon the wicked with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth.

It was especially prophesied of first in the OT Books of the prophets.

Isa 2:12-21
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols He shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
KJV

Isa 13:6-11
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
KJV



Joel 3:14-17
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

Those are only a few of the many OT examples of the events to occur on the "day of the Lord" that will end this present world. Notice that Joel 3 version says God will be our hope, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV



Paul in Hebrews showed us how far reaching the changes on this earth will be on that day, with the things that are made (man's works) being removed, so those things that cannot be removed will remain.

Apostle Peter went into a little more detail about that day of destruction upon the earth:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

In that 2 Pet.3 Chapter, Peter was talking about previous destructions upon the earth that God did in the past, and there he is revealing the final destruction by God's consuming fire that will end the things of man upon this present world.

That is not just specific to a small area of the earth, like the middle east. It is encompass the whole earth.

That is the day Apostle Paul was speaking of in 1 Cor.15 about those in Christ alive on earth who remain being "changed", "at the twinkling of an eye", to the "spiritual body" on the "last trump", and then per 1 Thess.4 being "caught up" to join with Jesus and the asleep saints He brings with Him.

Per Isaiah 29 and 30 upon the wicked around Jerusalem, this event of the "day of the Lord" will also be a destruction upon those armies coming upon them "suddenly, at an instant". So these events on the "day of the Lord", the final day of this world, are going to occur very quickly. This is why Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.5 that when the deceived begin to say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" comes upon them. He was speaking of these "day of the Lord" events of God's judgment upon the wicked on earth, ending this present world.

In Daniel 3, God's servants who refused to bow to the golden image idol of the king of Babylon were cast into a hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and a Fourth Man with the appearance of The Son of God was seen with them. They came out of the fire completely unharmed, their clothes not even smelling of smoke. That is symbolic of Christ's protection over His saints still alive on earth on that day. We are not to worry about these events on that final day, for it will not harm us. But just like the wicked servants of the king of Babylon, when they only got near that hot fiery furnace, they were instantly consumed by its heat.

That hot fiery furnace example is symbolic of God's consuming fire at the end of this world, ending this present world, like Apostle Peter showed in 2 Pet.3:10. On that day if you are still alive on earth, as many of Christ's Church still will be, you will be changed to the "spiritual body" at an instant. At the same timing the wicked will be burned up. If you be in Christ Jesus, you need not fear that final day at all, but instead welcome it, for God is our Rock and our Fortress. He will protect us.