Secret Rapture
- Thread starter kentappel
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Popeye, Chuck or any Pre-tribber, correct me if I'm wrong.
The main reasons you guys see a Pre-Trib Rapture is your belief in the following:
1) The Great Tribulation is worldwide effecting the entire planet
2) God's Wrath and the GT is synonymous
3) The Church is not appointed to God's Wrath
4) All seals, trumps and bowls are part of the GT
5) A huge revival will take place after the Rapture of the church...
6) ...this accounts for the multitudes of "Tribulation Saints" who are killed during the GT, Rev 7
7) The true Church, as represented by Philadelphia, avoids "the hour of trial" and therefore must be raptured
What if I could show you using the Bible that every one of these views is wrong?
The main reasons you guys see a Pre-Trib Rapture is your belief in the following:
1) The Great Tribulation is worldwide effecting the entire planet
2) God's Wrath and the GT is synonymous
3) The Church is not appointed to God's Wrath
4) All seals, trumps and bowls are part of the GT
5) A huge revival will take place after the Rapture of the church...
6) ...this accounts for the multitudes of "Tribulation Saints" who are killed during the GT, Rev 7
7) The true Church, as represented by Philadelphia, avoids "the hour of trial" and therefore must be raptured
What if I could show you using the Bible that every one of these views is wrong?
For there to be a Pre-tribulation rapture, one would expect to find Christ discussing it at the Olivet, correct? After all, His disciples which are saved believing Jewish Christians asked Him this question: “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
The Rapture (whenever it occurs) would be an enormous sign of the end of the age. Surely Christ would not leave out the Rapture as a sign of the end of the age. So for the rapture to happen before the Tribulation, one would expect to find it before Christ discusses the Tribulation. Let's see if he does.
Somewhere above the red line there should be the Rapture. I cannot find it. Can someone point it out to me? Below the red line I see warnings to not believe in false Christs of prophets which is strange because why warn believers who won't be on earth if they are raptured before this? I see the potential for saints to be deceived if it were possible. How could saints be deceived if they were already raptured?
The Rapture (whenever it occurs) would be an enormous sign of the end of the age. Surely Christ would not leave out the Rapture as a sign of the end of the age. So for the rapture to happen before the Tribulation, one would expect to find it before Christ discusses the Tribulation. Let's see if he does.
Somewhere above the red line there should be the Rapture. I cannot find it. Can someone point it out to me? Below the red line I see warnings to not believe in false Christs of prophets which is strange because why warn believers who won't be on earth if they are raptured before this? I see the potential for saints to be deceived if it were possible. How could saints be deceived if they were already raptured?
P
popeye
Guest
Without the "limited earth region" you have no case.
Your cornerstone is convincing folks John believed as you do due to his limited perspective.
That concept assumes God himself had no knowledge outside Johns limited perspective.
Every man,woman,child,free,and bond.
God was mistaken......right?
P
popeye
Guest
Using your logic,somewhere after that line you need a resurrection of the dead.
They are gathered from heaven.
Angels gather,not Jesus
Noone is raised from graves.
Rev 19 has saints in heaven mounting horses,becoming the wife,in heaven,during the GT.
P
popeye
Guest
Besides all that,there has already been a pretrib rapture and resurrection with Jesus and the first fruits.
Harvest is 4 parts.
3 to go.
Notice you nor any postrib will touch that basic truth,or the bride &groom concept,or the AC killing all the saints,or the 10 virgin parable.
Those,and more cornerstones removed from the debate.
We virtually own the end times debate.
Harvest is 4 parts.
3 to go.
Notice you nor any postrib will touch that basic truth,or the bride &groom concept,or the AC killing all the saints,or the 10 virgin parable.
Those,and more cornerstones removed from the debate.
We virtually own the end times debate.
What is the End of the Age? “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Peter, James, John and Andrew asked the above question. Notice they asked for the "SIGN" of HIS coming and the End of the Age. Now the topic of the End of the Age came up before. Jesus discussed it in many parables by the sea privately with His disciples. Jesus said this:
...the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
"The righteous will shine forth as the sun." We have seen this concept before, right?
Dan 12: “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered,Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
Wow. Daniel tells us that the resurrection contains both those who get everlasting life and those everlasting contempt. So does Jesus who has the wheat and tares growing together until the End of the Age and Harvest.
Jesus associates the HARVEST with the END of the AGE. The first thing that happens at the Harvest is the gathering up of the tares to burn."
...and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
The gathering and burning of TARES first (before the gathering of the righteous) is not taught by the Pre-Tribber but it is taught by our Lord and Savior.
The Pre-tribber teaches an earlier gathering of the righteous with the Tares left behind. But that isn't the teaching of Christ. Christ says:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest.
How can this be pre-tribber? Christ ordered that the tares be allowed to grow alongside the wheat until the Harvest which is at the End of the Age. LET THEM GROW TOGETHER!! until the HARVEST.
Peter, James, John and Andrew asked the above question. Notice they asked for the "SIGN" of HIS coming and the End of the Age. Now the topic of the End of the Age came up before. Jesus discussed it in many parables by the sea privately with His disciples. Jesus said this:
...the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
"The righteous will shine forth as the sun." We have seen this concept before, right?
Dan 12: “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered,Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
Wow. Daniel tells us that the resurrection contains both those who get everlasting life and those everlasting contempt. So does Jesus who has the wheat and tares growing together until the End of the Age and Harvest.
Jesus associates the HARVEST with the END of the AGE. The first thing that happens at the Harvest is the gathering up of the tares to burn."
...and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
The gathering and burning of TARES first (before the gathering of the righteous) is not taught by the Pre-Tribber but it is taught by our Lord and Savior.
The Pre-tribber teaches an earlier gathering of the righteous with the Tares left behind. But that isn't the teaching of Christ. Christ says:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest.
How can this be pre-tribber? Christ ordered that the tares be allowed to grow alongside the wheat until the Harvest which is at the End of the Age. LET THEM GROW TOGETHER!! until the HARVEST.
P
popeye
Guest
That is the wheat and tares.
That is at theGWTJ after the millineum.
Jesus even explains it. He says it is at the end of the world.
LOF,when is it?
You guys leave stuff out,then run with a partial picture.
You are correct in one thing. It is absolutely vital for me to prove that the "earth" as referred to by John is a limited region and not the entire planet. It is also vital to prove that the "Beast of the Sea" is an Islamic empire and that the Harlot which is carried by the beast is indeed ISLAM. It is also vital for me to show that the Great Tribulation is the work of Satan (although God allows it) and that the GT is aimed specifically at Israel. This bolsters my "limited earth" argument. The Wrath of God comes after the Great Tribulation and the wrath is divine revenge for the GT. Lastly, I need to show that the Church (and by extension - Christians) are all but wiped out or at least gone from the "limited earth" region before the Wrath of God begins.
If I can prove all of this, the Pre-trib rapture necessity is gone. Then everything lines up and makes sense. Would you agree?
I'll be brief because I have to leave for church in a minute.
The Tares are Muslims
The Wheat are Jews/Israel
There was no church when Jesus gave this lesson. The tares are growing up alongside the Jews.
P
popeye
Guest
Pw
It is not a red flag to you,that you stand alone in your doctrine?
You have skirted this many times
Man! You have no idea what is coming! I'll just use one example to kill your idea that the wrath of God is restricted to Israel:
"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."
Regarding the above, do you think that when God causes the sun to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, that it will only affect Israel and the surrounding area or the entire planet?
How about Nebuchadnezzar's statue which represents all human governments, where the Rock (Christ) falls on the feet of the statue, smashing it to pieces like chaff on the threshing floor, blown away by the wind never to be found again. This represents the end of all human government and the Rock falling on the feet of the statue is Christ initiating those seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which dismantles all human government in preparation for Christ's millennial kingdom. Here's another example that God's wrath is not restricted to Israel, but involves the entire earth:
"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed"
Regarding the above, the "something like a huge mountain" is most likely an asteroid and is all ablaze because in John's vision he sees it coming through the earth's atmosphere, which is why it is all ablaze and it hits in one of the oceans. The result will be amazingly huge waves from the impact killing all of the creatures in that body of water which will equal a third of all the creatures over all the earth. And all of the ships in that body of water will be destroyed equaling a third over all the earth. Now, do you still think that this plague is only speaking about Israel?
The wrath of God is coming upon the entire earth to pour out his wrath on a Christ rejecting world, those who are prideful, arrogant, the sexually immoral, God haters, liars, lovers of money, lovers of self and everything else related to the sinful nature. This is not just Israel, but the entire planet, as God is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle ALL human government in preparation for Christ's millennial kingdom.
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
The above is an excerpt from Rev.19 when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Notice that it is the nations that are gathered there and that he going to strike down. Still think this only about Israel? Indeed, this entire seven years is in fulfillment of the prophecy off seventy sevens that was prophesied against Israel, but it also includes the enter earth and all of its nations. How about when at the 2nd bowl when God turns all of the ocean and fresh waters into blood? Does that only involve Israel? ISLAM is not the beast out of the sea, neither is ISLAM the Mystery Babylon, for ISLAM does not fit any of the criteria that is given in Revelation. Islam is not a city, it does not sit on seven hills, it is not dressed in purple and scarlet and she certainly isn't going to be the rich economic hub described in Revelation that make all the merchants of the world rich.
You need to get away from whoever is giving you these teachings and reread Revelation for yourself and do your own studies, because everything that you are claiming is false. That entire last seven years is God's doing and not Satan's. It is the fulfillment of the long prophesied "day of the Lord," Satan, as well as the entire earth, just happens to be apart of it. Jesus is the One opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets and followed by the bowl judgments and therefore, God is who is initiating this time of unprecedented wrath. It is not Satan's wrath! That is just one of the many false teachings that has been going around. Scripture only states that he is full of wrath and that because he will have been thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth and because he knows that he doesn't have much time before he will be thrown into the Abyss when Jesus returns.
That's where you're hiding OT history, for the tares represent especially the crept in nations of the Canaanites that Israel disobeyed God in failing to destroy (Judges 2 & 3). God said He would leave them among Israel to test them to see if His people would follow Him, or not. Per Judges 9, a group of Canaanites became bondservants in Israel because of Joshua's oath with them. In 1 Kings 9, they are bondservants still among Israel, living among Israel. Per 1 Chron.2:55, the Kenites of the land of Canaan became the scribes of Israel in charge of keeping God's Holy Writ. Many of those bondservants worked their way up as temple servants (Nethinims) and priests by the time of Ezra. And during Judah's 70 years Babylon captivity, many of the people of Judah took wives of the Canaanites, and later agreed to put them away after the return to Jerusalem, but did they all really succeed in that? Those are who the "tares" especially represent, the crept in unawares of Jude 1, especially among the house of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi).
And then there's Jacob's brother Esau who profaned God's Birthright selling it to Jacob for a bowl of red beans. After Jacob had received the blessing of Abraham from his father Isaac, Esau went in to his father and asked for the Birthright blessing too, crying and snibbling. Esau didn't seek God, but was a wild man. Some of those crept into Judah's stay also after the nation of Edom was destroyed, but the rest of them migrated elsewhere, having taken wives of both Ishmael's seed and of the Canaanites.
And then there's the spiritual sons of Cain which Jesus directly pointed to in John 8 when rebuking the scribes and Pharisees.
Just so others know, I am not associated with men's doctrines of Preterism, Historicism, nor a Pre-trib Rapture.
I adhere per God's Word to a Post-tribulation coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church, in order to go to the area of Jerusalem on earth where His beginning "thousand years" will take place from, with His elect Church of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles (Acts 1; Zech.14; Rev.20).
Being Post-trib does not... automatically place me into those above seminary categories of men's traditions.
I interpret the final "one week" (7 years) of Dan.9:27 very closely how Pre-trib does, but I do not hold to a Pre-tribulational coming and gathering by our Lord Jesus.
I do not confuse God's Holy Writ about the timing of "the day of the Lord" events like Pre-trib does. The "day of the Lord" per God's Word is about the event of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked as a final judgment of this present world, occurring on the last day of this world. It is not the tribulation Jesus taught. It accompanies His coming and gathering of His Church on that final day of this world.
Nor do I agree with Preterism's and Historicism's view that the time of "great tribulation" (Matt.24) began in the time of Christ's Apostles, as if it's been on-going for almost 2,000 years.
Nor do I agree with Preterism's and Historicism's view that the events of Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13 were fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed.
Nor do I adhere to theories of Dispensationalism, especially a contrived separation between God's concept of Israel and Christ's Church. Christ's Church is God's final concept of His Israel, and it includes both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles.
I am not SDA, nor JW, nor a Calvinist, nor a Reformationtionist, nor any newism, nor of any such cult faction.
I am not Jewish. I am not a Catholic. I am a Protestant Christian with a heritage going back to the French Huguenots (first French Protestants). But even their doctrines of men of that era I don't hold to.
If you strip away all those above categories of the doctrines of men, and instead stay in God's Word as written, your interpretation and understanding in God's Word will be very close to the early 1st century Church fathers. The majority that come here are only pushing their Church's religious system organizational line of doctrines, and not staying strictly to God's Holy Writ. That's why there are so many battles of confusion on forums like these.
I adhere per God's Word to a Post-tribulation coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church, in order to go to the area of Jerusalem on earth where His beginning "thousand years" will take place from, with His elect Church of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles (Acts 1; Zech.14; Rev.20).
Being Post-trib does not... automatically place me into those above seminary categories of men's traditions.
I interpret the final "one week" (7 years) of Dan.9:27 very closely how Pre-trib does, but I do not hold to a Pre-tribulational coming and gathering by our Lord Jesus.
I do not confuse God's Holy Writ about the timing of "the day of the Lord" events like Pre-trib does. The "day of the Lord" per God's Word is about the event of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked as a final judgment of this present world, occurring on the last day of this world. It is not the tribulation Jesus taught. It accompanies His coming and gathering of His Church on that final day of this world.
Nor do I agree with Preterism's and Historicism's view that the time of "great tribulation" (Matt.24) began in the time of Christ's Apostles, as if it's been on-going for almost 2,000 years.
Nor do I agree with Preterism's and Historicism's view that the events of Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13 were fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed.
Nor do I adhere to theories of Dispensationalism, especially a contrived separation between God's concept of Israel and Christ's Church. Christ's Church is God's final concept of His Israel, and it includes both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles.
I am not SDA, nor JW, nor a Calvinist, nor a Reformationtionist, nor any newism, nor of any such cult faction.
I am not Jewish. I am not a Catholic. I am a Protestant Christian with a heritage going back to the French Huguenots (first French Protestants). But even their doctrines of men of that era I don't hold to.
If you strip away all those above categories of the doctrines of men, and instead stay in God's Word as written, your interpretation and understanding in God's Word will be very close to the early 1st century Church fathers. The majority that come here are only pushing their Church's religious system organizational line of doctrines, and not staying strictly to God's Holy Writ. That's why there are so many battles of confusion on forums like these.
P
popeye
Guest
You are the worst one on this forum for using "church history" to bolster your doctrine.
You are 90% " man in history" ,10% cherry picked verses.
You answer none of our verses,and we put you in default of smearing us and going personal when we challenge you.
Stop acting like you are word centered.
Even your testimony above is loaded with a series of clichés and definitions.
You know zero of Gods purpose,the bride,and the reason for the GT
P
popeye
Guest
He followed a trail.
Invested too heavily in the Muslim thingy.
The Muslim dimension can go several ways
He is locked into "one way"
Absolutely locked in.
He seems brilliant. But brilliant can be a road block.
Not at all. The vast majority of pastors/teachers out there simply regurgitate the crap they were taught in Bible school. Few really challenge these teachings to see if they still hold up. When in the Bible has the majority ever been right about anything? It is always a select few that God uses. Not saying this about me as that would be boastful. I'm just saying, just because the majority believe a certain way doesn't make them right.
There are many out there now that recognize ISLAM as Mystery Babylon. There are more and more Christians who are becoming Post Trib. I'd venture to say that most Post-Tribbers were once Pre-Tribbers. I certainly was raised Pre-Trib. One typically doesn't reject something that one had been taught and believed for much of one's life without an awakening. I'd further suggest that you have always been Pre-Trib and won't even for one second consider another view or second guess that your view could be wrong.
There were two major breaks recently that altered my thinking. One was to recognize the extensive use of OT symbols in use by John in Revelation. This was a huge breakthrough in understanding things not to mention it has helped me sleep a lot better a night. The other was the identification of Mystery Babylon. Before this, I was thinking like most that there would be a leader who emerges with a new Global religion that the entire planet would have to accept or they would not be able to buy or sell or they would be killed. I was stock piling food and looking into building a bunker. Now I see that none of that is necessary if you don't live in the 1/4 part of the world controlled by them.