Secret Rapture

[PlainWord]

Uh,yeah,those refusing are killed

LEAVING ONLY BEAST WORSHIPPERS.

You actually AGREE with me PW

In that part of the world which John calls, "Earth" yes we agree. But do not confuse "earth" with entire planet. The fact is this is already happening. The area in green below is the "earth" as John knew it.

This part is almost entirely Muslim. Very few Christians are left. Now look at the same location as it relates to Christianity left remaining in the "earth" as known to John.

 

[RobbyEarl]

God Wins. I read the end of the book and God wins not Muslims nor any other fashion.

 

[dancinglady]

THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION. I DON'T KNOW HOW SUCH AN EVENT COULD BE A SECRET GIVEN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WILL NO LONGER BE AROUND. FOR INSTANCE: IN A FAMILY OF 12, 8 ARE NO LONGER HERE. IN A SCHOOL CLASS ROOM OF 35 KIDS, 20 ARE NO LONGER AROUND. OF COURSE, PEOPLE WILL COME UP WITH THEIR OWN EXPLANATIONS. BOTH SCIENTIFIC AND PERSONAL. BUT IN ANY CASE, I DON'T SEE HOW IT CAN BE "SECRETIVE". MY HUSBAND AND I ARE SO CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE WILL COME UP WITH ALL SORTS OF REASONS FOR THE DISAPPEARANCE, THAT WE HAVE LEFT LETTERS TO ELXPLAIN THE EVENT TO THOSE THAT WE THINK WILL BE LEFT BEHIND. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

 

[Chuckt]

THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION. I DON'T KNOW HOW SUCH AN EVENT COULD BE A SECRET GIVEN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WILL NO LONGER BE AROUND. FOR INSTANCE: IN A FAMILY OF 12, 8 ARE NO LONGER HERE. IN A SCHOOL CLASS ROOM OF 35 KIDS, 20 ARE NO LONGER AROUND. OF COURSE, PEOPLE WILL COME UP WITH THEIR OWN EXPLANATIONS. BOTH SCIENTIFIC AND PERSONAL. BUT IN ANY CASE, I DON'T SEE HOW IT CAN BE "SECRETIVE". MY HUSBAND AND I ARE SO CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE WILL COME UP WITH ALL SORTS OF REASONS FOR THE DISAPPEARANCE, THAT WE HAVE LEFT LETTERS TO ELXPLAIN THE EVENT TO THOSE THAT WE THINK WILL BE LEFT BEHIND. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

They believe God will make a cleansing.

And because they believe that God comes before the anti-Christ, they will believe the anti-Christ to be God so they will misappropriate this verse:

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

After the rapture, there are some who will now believe and the anti-Christ could use this verse to kill new believers pretending to be God:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

[PlainWord]

What he quoted are interpretations and therefore making the Bible not literal. When people depend on non literal interpretations then it is possible to make the Bible say something that it doesn't say. The willingness to do that is a non-dependence on God. It shows the non-Christian ness of the whole thing.

Chuck,

You unfortunately mock what you do not understand. I don't blame you as you likely never heard that John wrote Revelation in what's called, "Apocalyptic Literary Style." This style of writing was very popular in his day and all the way through the Spanish Inquisition. Nostradamus used this style extensively to protect himself against the Church who may have arrested and killed him for heresy.

John was on the Isle of Patmos under Roman control basically under house arrest. In those days, if you say anything that might be construed as critical of the government, you are persecuted or killed. Anyone who has studied Revelation as much as I have, understands that John used OT Biblical symbols to disguise the true meaning in case his letters to the churches were found. He wrote this way by divine inspiration to protect himself and his intended readers, the 7 churches of Asia Minor.

John's use of OT symbolism is clear. He knew that true Christians, many of whom were Jewish and knew the writings of the OT prophets intimately would completely understand his writings while the Romans (should they find his writing) be totally baffled by talk of beasts from the sea and earth, by fire breathing men, etc. Romans would read these writings and just consider them the ramblings of an old crazy man and just discard them. Meanwhile, the churches who received them received incredible insight and inspiration as well as correction.

I provided examples of the OT symbols in use by John and can provide more. Some times John defines the symbols, sometimes he doesn't and you have to turn to the OT to understand them. Regardless, Revelation is not to be taken literally and if you think that, you missed the boat. You are going to see things literally that just are not what John taught such as fire breathing men standing on the Temple Mount torching their enemies until a beast crawls out of a pit and kills them. You are going to see a big mountain burning with fire being thrown into the sea killing all the fishes and 1/3 of the ships.

If you read Revelation in a vacuum without referring to the symbols used extensively by the OT prophets, you may as well give up because your view is going to be as wrong, lost and confused, as it would have been for the Romans had they read it.

Just trying to help you Chuck to understand correctly so that you can be blessed with the knowledge that Jesus revealed through His servant John. But hey, I believed as you did several years ago until this was pointed out to me and has so blessed me. Now I am sharing this with you and hope you too will be blessed.

 

[DP]

Hello DP,

You didn't address what I presented. At the 4th seal, a fourth of the earth's population is killed. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a fourth would equal 1.7 billion people and Jesus is the One who is initiating that as he is the One who is breaking the seals. Stop jumping to other scripture and address that. What you and many do not understand is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments together are the fulfillment of God's wrath, also referred to as "the day of the Lord." It is not just individual parts of those judgments, but the three sets of seven judgments are all of God's wrath, with the exception of some like the 5th seal which doesn't cause any fatalities. From the opening of the first seal, this begins God's wrath, which includes the fatalities resulting from the first four seals.

Furthermore regarding Peter, he was speaking in a broad sense of end-time events and not a chronological one, for we know from other scriptures that, the earth does not get destroyed right when Jesus returns to end that age and that because once he returns he will rule on this present earth for a thousand years. Therefore, the destruction of this heaven and earth does not take place until after the thousand years and after or during the great white throne judgment. After the thousand years, then John sees the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem.

Doesn't say 1/4 of the earth is killed. It says power was given to them over 1/4 of the earth to kill with the sword, with hunger, with death, and with beasts of the earth. That's different than saying 1/4 of the earth gets killed. And how does one kill using death?

Nor did I jump around in explaining that 4th seal, even though there are other related Scriptures to that event which is why I mentioned the Matt.24 parallel from our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse, since He was giving those signs of Rev.6 there. If you don't care to heed that in His Olivet Discourse just because those men you listen to told you a lie that Christ's Olivet Discourse is not for Christ's Church, then that's your fault, not mine.

Those men also are lying to you about the timing of the "day of the Lord" event. It will occur only on the final day of this world when Jesus comes with His army to battle the nations gathered around Jerusalem with Armageddon on the 7th Vial. Your not understanding that shows you haven't studied your OT Books much. I recommend Isaiah on that especially.

 

[DP]

What he quoted are interpretations and therefore making the Bible not literal. When people depend on non literal interpretations then it is possible to make the Bible say something that it doesn't say. The willingness to do that is a non-dependence on God. It shows the non-Christian ness of the whole thing.

How many of those supposed Bible scholar videos you posted are 33rd degree Masons? Why should Christ's Church listen to members associated with the Masonic Lodge which treats all religions as merely different paths to the same God?

Plainword is right about Biblical symbolism though. God uses it a whole... lot in His Word to make it certain what He is talking about. And when you understand it there's no way to miss what His Message is. Those parables, proverbs, idioms, expressions, analogies, and metaphors thus are anchors in His Word. Yet many brethren fail to understand when He's giving those in His Word, and that's from a lack of disciplined Bible study.

 

[Chuckt]

How many of those supposed Bible scholar videos you posted are 33rd degree Masons? Why should Christ's Church listen to members associated with the Masonic Lodge which treats all religions as merely different paths to the same God?

Where did that come from? There were Christians who were Masons before dispensationalism. And if your pastor or elders were masons, you would never know.

 

[DP]

Where did that come from? There were Christians who were Masons before dispensationalism. And if your pastor or elders were masons, you would never know.

And that is a problem.

That because the Masonic Lodge treats all religions as merely different paths to the same God. And they used... to require one to be a believing Christian just to join (at least that's what U.S. masons have told me).

 

[PlainWord]

DP,

Not to cause a fight with Chuck, as I'm trying to help him. But it's a little ironic being lectured on taking the Bible literally when there is NO LITERAL PASSAGE which discusses an early rapture return before the Tribulation, or two separate returns taught in any single passage, or the concept of a "tribulation saint" which differs from a regular saint. None of this can be found literally but many have no problems making fantastic leaps to invent such things.

The Pre-trib rapture return is completely invented out of thin air, or more accurately out of not understanding other passages and misapplying still others.

 

[DP]

DP,

Not to cause a fight with Chuck, as I'm trying to help him. But it's a little ironic being lectured on taking the Bible literally when there is NO LITERAL PASSAGE which discusses an early rapture return before the Tribulation, or two separate returns taught in any single passage, or the concept of a "tribulation saint" which differs from a regular saint. None of this can be found literally but many have no problems making fantastic leaps to invent such things.

The Pre-trib rapture return is completely invented out of thin air, or more accurately out of not understanding other passages and misapplying still others.

Even though you and I don't agree on some Scripture, that is definitely one thing we both agree on. If many brethren with Cyrus Scofield's study Bibles knew what a charlatan he really was, stealing one of his relative's inheritance, and belonging to the Club of New York (bankers and lawyers), they would be tempted to shelve their Scofield study Bibles forever.

 

[Chuckt]

And that is a problem.

That because the Masonic Lodge treats all religions as merely different paths to the same God. And they used... to require one to be a believing Christian just to join (at least that's what U.S. masons have told me).

Still don't see why that has anything to do with anything.

 

[Chuckt]

DP,

Not to cause a fight with Chuck, as I'm trying to help him. But it's a little ironic being lectured on taking the Bible literally when there is NO LITERAL PASSAGE which discusses an early rapture return before the Tribulation, or two separate returns taught in any single passage, or the concept of a "tribulation saint" which differs from a regular saint. None of this can be found literally but many have no problems making fantastic leaps to invent such things.

The Pre-trib rapture return is completely invented out of thin air, or more accurately out of not understanding other passages and misapplying still others.

Various Raptures:
Paul caught up to third heaven – 2 Corinthians 12:2,4
The Church Rapture – 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Philip caught away by the spirit – Acts 8:39
Man child caught away – Revelation 12:5
Two witnesses caught up – Revelation 11:12
Enoch taken – Hebrews 11:5
84%, Location 10565, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.

Names for the Rapture of the Church in Scripture
The Appearing – Hebrews 9:28
The Blessed Hope of “the appearing” – Titus 2:13
The Catching away – 1 Thessalonians 4:17
The Changing – 1 Corinthians 15:52
The Entering the bridal chamber – Isaiah 26:19-21
The Gathering – 2 Thessalonians 2:1
The Manifesting of the Sons of God – Romans 8:18-25
The Rescue/Deliverance from “the wrath” – 1 Thessalonians 1:10
The Rescue – Daniel 12:1-2
The Revelation of Jesus Christ – 1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:13
The Transformation – Philippians 3:20-21
84%, Location 10590, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.

“The sky being split apart like a scroll is the church being taken away.” (Revelation 6:14) Victorinus Commentary on Revelation 6:14 – AD 240
“And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the wrath of God. (Revelation 15:1) and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.” (2 Thessalonians 2:7) Commentary on the Apocalypse 15.1 – Victorinus AD 240
84%, Location 10633, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.
“Luke 21:23 says the “wrath” is for His people Israrel. The church is not appointed to wrath, (1 Thessalonians 5:9) and will be kept from the hour of trial (Revelation 3:10) because the gates of hell will not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:17).
84%, Location 10646, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.
“…because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the LORD…” On The Last Times 2 – Ephraim the Syrian AD 373
84%, Location 10698, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Dr. Ken Johnson, Th.D.

 

[Chuckt]

DP,

Not to cause a fight with Chuck, as I'm trying to help him. But it's a little ironic being lectured on taking the Bible literally when there is NO LITERAL PASSAGE which discusses an early rapture return before the Tribulation, or two separate returns taught in any single passage, or the concept of a "tribulation saint" which differs from a regular saint. None of this can be found literally but many have no problems making fantastic leaps to invent such things.

The Pre-trib rapture return is completely invented out of thin air, or more accurately out of not understanding other passages and misapplying still others.

Isaiah 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
I don't believe it is a metaphor. I looked up "fly" in the Hebrew and it literally means "fly" and the King James translators made a somewhat literal translation.

Then if we translate "fly" in terms of context, we have other words like "doves" and "nest". So how do Doves fly to their nest? So I looked to Youtube to find a video and you might enjoy these doves:

[video=youtube;P5l_1_dcFZA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5l_1_dcFZA[/video]

Here is a definition on "Fly":

to fly, fly about, fly away

AV — fly 17, (fly, flee...) away

Gesenius's Lexicon says, "To COVER; Especially with feathers, wings" and immediately I thought of:

Psalm 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Psalm 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

The book "Hebrews Word Study: Beyond the Lexicon" by by Chaim Bentorah says, "Classical Hebrew died out during the captivity period around the sixth century BC and was only retained as a ceremonial language until the turn of the 20th Century when it was revived for use as a national language in Israel. However, what is spoken in Israel today is a modern version of Hebrew containing a couple hundred thousand words as opposed to the Classical Hebrew which has only about seventy five hundred words." Many of the original meanings of these wors have been lost and what we have are just our traditional understandings of these words as they have been passed down from generation to generation.". Location 123, Kindle Ebook, 3%, "Hebrew Word Study: Beyond the Lexicon" by Chaim Bentorah.

Verse 8-9
From the mainland, over which caravans and flocks are coming, the prophet now turns his eyes to the sea. “Who are these who fly hither as a cloud, and like the doves to their windows? Yea, the islands wait for me; and the ships of Tarshish come first, to bring thy children from far, their silver and gold with them, to the name of thy God, and to the holy One of Israel, because He hath ornamented thee.” Upon the sea there appear first of all enigmatical shapes, driving along as swiftly as if they were light clouds flying before the wind (Isaiah 19:1; Isaiah 45:22), or like doves flying to their dovecots (celeres cavis se turribus abdunt, as Ovid says), i.e., to the round towers with their numerous pigeon-holes, which are provided for their shelter. The question is addressed to Zion, and the answer may easily be anticipated - namely, that this swarm of swiftly flying figures are hurrying to a house which they long to reach, as much as pigeons do to reach their pigeon-house. The (kı̄) which follows is explanatory: this hurrying presents itself to thine eyes, because the isles wait for me. The reason for all this haste is to be found in the faith of those who are hurrying on. The Old Testament generally speaks of faith as hope (ל קוּה as in Isaiah 51:5; Isaiah 42:4); not that faith is the same as hope, but it is the support of hope, just as hope is the comfort of faith. In the Old Testament, when the true salvation existed only in promise, this epithet, for which there were many synonyms in the language, was the most appropriate one. The faith of the distant lands of the west is now beginning to work. The object of all this activity is expressed in the word להביא. The things thus flying along like clouds and doves are ships; with the Tartessus ships, which come from the farthest extremity of the European insular quarter of the globe, at their head (בּראשׁנה with munachinstead of metheg, in the same sense as in Numbers 10:14; lxx ἐν πρώτοις ; Jerome, in principio, in the foremost rank), i.e., acting as the leaders of the fleet which is sailing to Zion and bringing Zion's children from afar, and along with them the gold and silver of the owners of the vessels themselves, to the name (לשׁם, to the name, dative, not equivalent to למען; lxx διὰ , as in Isaiah 55:5) of thy God, whom they adore, and to the Holy One of Israel, because He hath ornamented thee, and thereby inspired them with reverence and love to thee (פארך for פארך, as in Isaiah 54:6, where it even stands out of pause).

Isaiah 60 Commentary - Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament

Keil & Delitzsch were experts in the Old Testament Hebrew and what they see is a mass exodus. They quote Isaiah 19:1 where the Lord is riding on a swift cloud.

It is also interesting that windows or lattices can mean chimney or flood gates of heaven.

Luke 12:49 ¶ I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Isaiah 19:1 - The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

What you are looking at is revealed prophecy and I see bits and pieces of it because it wasn't meant to be fully revealed.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Delitzsch

making as it were one cloud, and that openly and publicly, professing Christ, and joining themselves to his church, in the face of the world; and so the Targum,

"who are these that come publicly as the swift clouds?'

and chiefly are they compared to a cloud for their swiftness in motion to Christ and his church; sinners; sensible of danger from the avenging justice of God, from his law, and from his wrath and displeasure, and eternal death, and being apprized of salvation and safety in Christ, make haste and flee to him as swiftly as a cloud driven by the winds;

and as the doves to their windows; or "dove houses", or "lockers and holes"F3;

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible
Isaiah 60 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition on the Whole Bible

This verse from the Targum reminds me of John 14:2

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

It is literally "dwelling places" and fits with Gill's "lockers and holes".

 

[popeye]

THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION. I DON'T KNOW HOW SUCH AN EVENT COULD BE A SECRET GIVEN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WILL NO LONGER BE AROUND. FOR INSTANCE: IN A FAMILY OF 12, 8 ARE NO LONGER HERE. IN A SCHOOL CLASS ROOM OF 35 KIDS, 20 ARE NO LONGER AROUND. OF COURSE, PEOPLE WILL COME UP WITH THEIR OWN EXPLANATIONS. BOTH SCIENTIFIC AND PERSONAL. BUT IN ANY CASE, I DON'T SEE HOW IT CAN BE "SECRETIVE". MY HUSBAND AND I ARE SO CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE WILL COME UP WITH ALL SORTS OF REASONS FOR THE DISAPPEARANCE, THAT WE HAVE LEFT LETTERS TO ELXPLAIN THE EVENT TO THOSE THAT WE THINK WILL BE LEFT BEHIND. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

It is a rabbit trail.

You will only hear it from postribbers.

Postrib rapture doctrine is easily debunked with scripture. It is literally impossible. Therefore they go extra-biblical and are usually 10% substance 90% attack the messenger.

 

[popeye]

Still don't see why that has anything to do with anything.

He wants to slime anyone and anything connected to the pretrib rapture.

 

[popeye]

Even though you and I don't agree on some Scripture, that is definitely one thing we both agree on. If many brethren with Cyrus Scofield's study Bibles knew what a charlatan he really was, stealing one of his relative's inheritance, and belonging to the Club of New York (bankers and lawyers), they would be tempted to shelve their Scofield study Bibles forever.

Typical DP attack and slime job on the messenger.

 

[Chuckt]

250 REASONS FOR PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
Jesus is the Coming King!: 250 REASONS FOR PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

 

[Chuckt]

He wants to slime anyone and anything connected to the pretrib rapture.

Catholics hate the Masons. Wonder if he is catholic.

 

[popeye]

DP,

Not to cause a fight with Chuck, as I'm trying to help him. But it's a little ironic being lectured on taking the Bible literally when there is NO LITERAL PASSAGE which discusses an early rapture return before the Tribulation, or two separate returns taught in any single passage, or the concept of a "tribulation saint" which differs from a regular saint. None of this can be found literally but many have no problems making fantastic leaps to invent such things.

The Pre-trib rapture return is completely invented out of thin air, or more accurately out of not understanding other passages and misapplying still others.

The Pre-trib rapture return is completely invented out of thin air, or more accurately out of not understanding other passages and misapplying still others.

Thats funny coming from a guy that has no link to ANY MINISTRY with your teaching that the rapture happens after the millennium.

Red flags galore,as you are the only humanoid on the planet with "your special revelation"