Rediscovering pisteuo.

[studier]

G5293 - hypotassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

My point is simply: when the NT says “submit,” it’s usually talking about sanctification — how saved people live out their faith — not how a person gets saved in the first place.

Something interesting of note in Romans 10 in the Greek (new to me but doubtless not to you): akouō vs hypakouō.
So hypakouō "faithful" hearing comes after akouō hearing? After believing?

Rom 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have G191 not heard? G191 and how shall they hear G191 without a preacher?

Rom 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed G5219 from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom 10:16
But they have G5219 not all obeyed G5219 the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

ἀκούω (akoúō) = to hear
ὑπακούω (hypa-koúō) = to hear under → to heed, to submit to what is heard

The prefix ὑπό (hypo) means under (as in hierarchy, hypodermic, etc.).

So:
ὑπακούω = to place oneself under what is heard

This is not just louder hearing — it is positional hearing.
It means accepting the authority of what one hears.

That is why in Greek literature and the NT it means:
to obey, to submit, to respond with compliance

ἀκούω = auditory reception
ὑπακούω = covenantal submission to what is heard

IMO submission is a good basic translation of hupotassō.

So, Rom10:3:

NKJ Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness (literally, the [of] the God righteousness), and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted (hupotassō) to the righteousness [of] God.

• Note how translators are trying to deal with v.3
  • NKJ Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness
  • NET Romans 10:3 For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God
  • ESV Romans 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God,
  • CJB Romans 10:3 for, since they are unaware of God's way of making people righteous
  • NLT Romans 10:3 For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself.
• So, what does "the [of] the God righteousness" & "the righteousness [of] God" mean - what is Paul talking about?
  • Israel did not submit to "the righteousness of God"
  • What's Paul talking about in Rom10 that Israel did not hupotassō to?

 

[cv5]

IMO submission is a good basic translation of hupotassō.
What's Paul talking about in Rom10 that Israel did not hupotassō to?

Hhhmmmmm interesting. I think we are perusing a useful line of thought here.....

So we have this:
ἀκούω (akoúō) = to hear
ὑπακούω (hypa-koúō) = to hear under → to heed, to submit to what is heard


And then we have this:
G5021 - tassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G5021 in the following manner: appoint (3x), ordain (2x), set (1x), determine (1x), addict (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to put in order, to station
   1. to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
      1. to assign (appoint) a thing to one
   2. to appoint, ordain, order
      1. to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority
      2. to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

Act 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (set in order) G5021 to eternal life believed G4100 .

Correct order (de-Calvinized!):
“Hearing, then the Gentiles were rejoicing, and glorifying the word of the Lord; and believed as many as were appointed to life eternal.”

The participle ἀκούοντα (“hearing”) comes first, even before the article and noun for “the Gentiles,” because Greek often front-loads participles for emphasis.

G5293 - hypotassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G5293 in the following manner: put under (6x), be subject unto (6x), be subject to (5x), submit (one's) self unto (5x), submit (one's) self to (3x), be in subjection unto (2x), put in subjection under (1x), miscellaneous (12x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

******************************************************************************

Right now I am thinking "set in order the rightful Authority (Christ) by positive volition" is a far better and more accurate term than mere "submission".

What do you think?

 

[studier]

@Watchman22 said:
1) A personal surrender to Him and
2) a life inspired by such surrender.

Well, I take issue with #1 "personal surrender".....of what exactly? What we are doing is yielding to His will by active positive volition in faith.

And also #2 "a life inspired by such a surrender".......sound quaint, but frankly wrong. Our lives are DEFINITELY not "inspired" by our own "surrender".

cc: @HeIsHere

If you two want to see some of the beginnings of this on this forum, look here

For Vine's if you haven't looked try here (3rd paragraph is where "surrender" comes in)

• A few comments:
  • How does Vine derive "surrender" from John1:12?
  • Note that the "surrendered" life he sees in 2Cor5:7 is based upon deriving "surrender" from John1:12
• A few more comments:
  • This "faithing" (to replace believing & "faithers" to replace believers) is something discussed for some time and not new to this poster. It's part of the long chain of people attempting to fully understand what genuine, biblical faith is. It's never become a major point of view or course of pursuit and stands opposed to a massive amount of lexical and translational work.
  • We can also look at the etymology of pisteuō (to believe) and see that it is derived from peithō (to persuade/convince). I don't know about you but to convince someone to believe something makes sense.
  • Search for "surrender" in the English translation of your choice. It's not a popular choice of English to deal with Hebrew or Greek wording. If/when you find it, look at the underlying Hebrew or Greek and see what it says.
  • I think @cv5 may have noted this, but "yield" I guess could be considered close to surrender. Paul uses this once in Gal2:5 translating eikō which BDAG Lexicon translates as "yield" - Paul's most certainly not talking about believing when he speaks of not yielding.

Have fun...

 

[studier]

Hhhmmmmm interesting. I think we are perusing a useful line of thought here.....

So we have this:
ἀκούω (akoúō) = to hear
ὑπακούω (hypa-koúō) = to hear under → to heed, to submit to what is heard


And then we have this:
G5021 - tassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G5021 in the following manner: appoint (3x), ordain (2x), set (1x), determine (1x), addict (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to put in order, to station
   1. to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
      1. to assign (appoint) a thing to one
   2. to appoint, ordain, order
      1. to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority
      2. to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

Act 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (set in order) G5021 to eternal life believed G4100 .

Correct order (de-Calvinized!):
“Hearing, then the Gentiles were rejoicing, and glorifying the word of the Lord; and believed as many as were appointed to life eternal.”

The participle ἀκούοντα (“hearing”) comes first, even before the article and noun for “the Gentiles,” because Greek often front-loads participles for emphasis.

G5293 - hypotassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G5293 in the following manner: put under (6x), be subject unto (6x), be subject to (5x), submit (one's) self unto (5x), submit (one's) self to (3x), be in subjection unto (2x), put in subjection under (1x), miscellaneous (12x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

******************************************************************************

Right now I am thinking "set in order the rightful Authority (Christ) by positive volition" is a far better and more accurate term than mere "submission".

What do you think?

Here's a copy of a Strong's version I've had on my system for years and look at periodically to check how combined words are viewed in this work:

G-5293. hupotasso, hoop-ot-as'-so;​

​

from {A.}G-5259 and {B.}G-5021; to subordinate; reflex. to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.​

​

{A.} G-5259. hupo, hoop-o';​

​

a prim. prep.; under, i.e. (with the gen.) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the acc.) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below]) or time (when [at]):--among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In comp. it retains the same gen. applications, espec. of inferior position or condition, and spec. covertly or moderately.​

​

{B.} G-5021. tasso, tas'-so;​

​

a prol. form of a prim. verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):--addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.​

If I take it at it's most base, I'd say "to arrange under" (to subordinate). So, we hear, we become convinced, we believe, we subordinate to the absolute authority of the Christ/King. This is basically the picture Paul is drawing in Rom10 and the reason he parallels faith and hupokouō in Rom10:16 re: the Gospel - there simply is no genuine faith in the King apart from obeying the King. And, yes, positive volition, the will to hear and obey/believe.

We dealt with Acts13:48 somewhere along the Calvinism battle lines. You're tapping into that with the "set in order" concept - those Gentiles had been set in order - in a sense prepared for eternal life by attending synagogue with the Jews (Acts13:15-16) - they were not ignorant of the things Paul was proclaiming and explaining to the Jews and Gentiles (God Fearers) in what is the most comprehensive narrative of Paul's proclaiming that we have record of (Act13:16-41) and note in Acts16:33 he references Ps2 which is one of the best pieces of Scripture to explain what YHWH's Christ (Anointed) means = YHWH's King who inherits the nations and the ends of the earth and who the kings and judges on the earth best serve and kiss lest He be angry!

 

[studier]

Hhhmmmmm interesting. I think we are perusing a useful line of thought here.....

So we have this:
ἀκούω (akoúō) = to hear
ὑπακούω (hypa-koúō) = to hear under → to heed, to submit to what is heard


And then we have this:
G5021 - tassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G5021 in the following manner: appoint (3x), ordain (2x), set (1x), determine (1x), addict (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to put in order, to station
   1. to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
      1. to assign (appoint) a thing to one
   2. to appoint, ordain, order
      1. to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority
      2. to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

Act 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (set in order) G5021 to eternal life believed G4100 .

Correct order (de-Calvinized!):
“Hearing, then the Gentiles were rejoicing, and glorifying the word of the Lord; and believed as many as were appointed to life eternal.”

The participle ἀκούοντα (“hearing”) comes first, even before the article and noun for “the Gentiles,” because Greek often front-loads participles for emphasis.

G5293 - hypotassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G5293 in the following manner: put under (6x), be subject unto (6x), be subject to (5x), submit (one's) self unto (5x), submit (one's) self to (3x), be in subjection unto (2x), put in subjection under (1x), miscellaneous (12x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

******************************************************************************

Right now I am thinking "set in order the rightful Authority (Christ) by positive volition" is a far better and more accurate term than mere "submission".

What do you think?

Still have to deal with what Israel did not submit/subordinate to in Rom10:3 in context. Re: submit/subordinate to, consider #1 above - they did not arrange themselves under - set themselves under - subordinate to - subject themselves to - submit to...

It all plays out in the multiple words I dealt with yesterday re: Rom10 beginning in flow with God's rēma...

 

[cv5]

Still have to deal with what Israel did not submit/subordinate to in Rom10:3 in context. Re: submit/subordinate to, consider #1 above - they did not arrange themselves under - set themselves under - subordinate to - subject themselves to - submit to...

It all plays out in the multiple words I dealt with yesterday re: Rom10 beginning in flow with God's rēma...

Right. The flow/context cannot be sidelined lest error creep in!

 

[Watchman22]

Right. The flow/context cannot be sidelined lest error creep in!

Since your rejecting the Vines Greek dictionaries definition of saving faith, the best way to remedy that is to open you up and see what's inside.

Gods word says test everything. Thats what I'm asking you to do. Studier declined to follow Gods word about this, are you declining also?

Mind of Christ, how long have you had it, what happened when you received it, and what does it feel like every minute of every?

 

[Watchman22]

I guess I will have to go back and read more of the thread to get the flow of the conversation.

I think he is saying that the result of the surrender becomes an inspired life.

Hi HeIsHere,
You seem to have an interest in this topic and how I'm presenting it. Do you have any questions about that?

 

[cv5]

Since your rejecting the Vines Greek dictionaries definition of saving faith, the best way to remedy that is to open you up and see what's inside.

Gods word says test everything. Thats what I'm asking you to do. Studier declined to follow Gods word about this, are you declining also?

Mind of Christ, how long have you had it, what happened when you received it, and what does it feel like every minute of every?

Come on man......give it up. The barking out orders I mean. And pseudo-authoritative slap-downs.

 

[Watchman22]

Come on man......give it up. The barking out orders I mean. And pseudo-authoritative slap-downs.

Are you declining?

The mind of Christ is ultimately what we're talking about here.

 

[Watchman22]

Come on man......give it up. The barking out orders I mean. And pseudo-authoritative slap-downs.

You are attempting to redefine the Greek word pisteuo. Putting your translation over the Vines. I would like to see the one thing necessary to do that.

Mind of Christ, how long have you had it, what happened when you received it, and what does it feel like every minute of every day?

 

[pinebeach]

Since your rejecting the Vines Greek dictionaries definition of saving faith, the best way to remedy that is to open you up and see what's inside.

Gods word says test everything. Thats what I'm asking you to do. Studier declined to follow Gods word about this, are you declining also?

Mind of Christ, how long have you had it, what happened when you received it, and what does it feel like every minute of every?

It's not a rejection so much as an aid for the novice. Scholars certainly won't use it which most likely leaves you in the first category.
We should test the spirits...the Bible says test the spirits not this nebulous everything. I posted the following in another thread wherein you made the same claims concerning the word believe

Pisteuo
pist-yoo'-o
Parts of SpeechVerb
Pisteuo Definition

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

and Believe

intransitive verb

1
a
: to accept something as true, genuine, or real
ideals we believe in

believes in ghosts

b
: to have a firm or wholehearted religious conviction or persuasion : to regard the existence of God or a deity as a fact
Do you believe?

She went to church all her life, but didn't really believe until she was older.


—usually used with in
believe in the Scriptures

2
: to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of someone or something
believe in exercise

You can do it, we believe in you!


3
: to hold an opinion : think
inclined to believe as their parents did

 

[pinebeach]

Thinking about it actually, I think it's perhaps just the op who is not comprehending what Vines actually states.

without prejudice of course

 

[cv5]

Mind of Christ, how long have you had it, what happened when you received it, and what does it feel like every minute of every day?

Imposing such preposterous demands (for the purposes of your judgement or validation) of such a thing as having or not having the mind of Christ does not belong on this message board.

Furthermore I am under no obligation whatsoever to answer your questions.

 

[Watchman22]

Imposing such preposterous demands (for the purposes of your judgement or validation) of such a thing as having or not having the mind of Christ does not belong on this message board.

Furthermore I am under no obligation whatsoever to answer your questions.

I think you just did.

 

[studier]

I think you just did.

Why don't you grace us with your version of the meaning of the mind of Christ FROM Scripture in context?

 

[Watchman22]

Why don't you grace us with your version of the meaning of the mind of Christ FROM Scripture in context?

Thats the beauty of the mind of Christ, nothing in Scripture gives any clues of what happens, how it happens, and what it's like to live with it every day. There's hints to the spiritual awakening and even the Holy spirit, but nothing about the mind of Christ. At least not in the NT.

And because it's very rare, people can't parrot it, even the algorithms don't have it yet, and i need to keep it that way.

And of course, just like all of Gods gifts, once it happens to you, you can recognize it in others very easy.

The key is faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, making that daily personal surrender to Him and living a life inspired by such surrender. But don't do it to receive the gifts, that wouldn't be a genuine surrender, but a business deal.

I'm rooting for all of you.

 

[pinebeach]

op = a billboard advert for himself

 

[HeIsHere]

Hi HeIsHere,
You seem to have an interest in this topic and how I'm presenting it. Do you have any questions about that?

No questions, but I think a definition is insufficient to really understand the meaning of a word, especially one which represents a complex concept from a different time period.

 

[studier]

Thats the beauty of the mind of Christ, nothing in Scripture gives any clues of what happens, how it happens, and what it's like to live with it every day. There's hints to the spiritual awakening and even the Holy spirit, but nothing about the mind of Christ. At least not in the NT.

And because it's very rare, people can't parrot it, even the algorithms don't have it yet, and i need to keep it that way.

And of course, just like all of Gods gifts, once it happens to you, you can recognize it in others very easy.

The key is faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, making that daily personal surrender to Him and living a life inspired by such surrender. But don't do it to receive the gifts, that wouldn't be a genuine surrender, but a business deal.

I'm rooting for all of you.

Nice try. As I stated before, Gnostic elitist mysticism.

In actuality, Paul's statement about the 'mind of Christ' that 'we' have (1Cor2:16) is quite easy to understand in context. When someone makes it into what's it's not and inserts their own meaning into it, then no one can have it unless that someone approves.

You're simply not the authority you assert.