Rediscovering pisteuo.
- Thread starter Watchman22
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hello Jay (@Watchman22), I'm not sure that I will find the time needed to reply to everything that you've written to me in this thread until we get past the holidays, but I can make a few points/ask a few questions in the meantime/as time allows, so here goes.
My first question is this, why do you continue to insist that believe/believing is a "mistranslation" of the Greek transliterated word, pisteuo
and/or that pisteuo's only true definition is "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender" (I'm not denying that the above is one of the possible definitions of pisteuo, but it is hardly the only definition).
Along with the example of James 2:19 (that I posited for you earlier on), let's take a look at some other verses that translate πιστεύω/pisteuo as "believe/believing". For instance,
Now, if we go with your definition of pisteuo instead, here's how this verse reads.
Surely that can't be correct (even if you reword the definition a bit to fit the verse), anymore that it is correct to apply that particular definition of pisteuo to either one of its uses in James 2:19. "Believe", in the case of both of these verses (1 Corinthians 11:18 and James 2:19, that is) and MANY others, is clearly the correct translation of pisteuo.
Finally, even if pisteuo's only true definition is the one that you continue to point to and posit for us in this thread, it would still be incorrect to call "believe/believing" a "mistranslation" of the word if "believe/believing" is the closest word to it in English.
Of course, it is for this very reason that we turn to Greek and Hebrew lexicons and word studies (instead of using English dictionaries) to help us correctly define Biblical Hebrew and Greek words (along, of course, with help from our scholars, our linguists, theologians, pastors and teachers, IOW, who have studied and/or teach one or both languages in seminary/in church, as our arriving at the true definition of a Greek/Hebrew word includes FAR more than simply looking up the definition in a lexicon and deciding which one seems best
).
This post is already long enough, so I will ask an additional question or two in my next post below.
Happy New Year and God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I own several books by Vines, including his expository, complete and topical dictionaries/lexicons, but I have been unable to locate the particular definition that you've given us for "pisteuo" in any of them, so please tell us which one of Vine's books your definition comes from so that we can see it for ourselves. Thanks
My first question is this, why do you continue to insist that believe/believing is a "mistranslation" of the Greek transliterated word, pisteuo
and/or that pisteuo's only true definition is "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender" (I'm not denying that the above is one of the possible definitions of pisteuo, but it is hardly the only definition).Along with the example of James 2:19 (that I posited for you earlier on), let's take a look at some other verses that translate πιστεύω/pisteuo as "believe/believing". For instance,
1 Corinthians 11
18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I ~believe~ (pisteuo) it.
Now, if we go with your definition of pisteuo instead, here's how this verse reads.
1 Corinthians 11
18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I ~a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender~ (pisteuo) it.
Surely that can't be correct (even if you reword the definition a bit to fit the verse), anymore that it is correct to apply that particular definition of pisteuo to either one of its uses in James 2:19. "Believe", in the case of both of these verses (1 Corinthians 11:18 and James 2:19, that is) and MANY others, is clearly the correct translation of pisteuo.
Finally, even if pisteuo's only true definition is the one that you continue to point to and posit for us in this thread, it would still be incorrect to call "believe/believing" a "mistranslation" of the word if "believe/believing" is the closest word to it in English.
Of course, it is for this very reason that we turn to Greek and Hebrew lexicons and word studies (instead of using English dictionaries) to help us correctly define Biblical Hebrew and Greek words (along, of course, with help from our scholars, our linguists, theologians, pastors and teachers, IOW, who have studied and/or teach one or both languages in seminary/in church, as our arriving at the true definition of a Greek/Hebrew word includes FAR more than simply looking up the definition in a lexicon and deciding which one seems best
).This post is already long enough, so I will ask an additional question or two in my next post below.
Happy New Year and God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I own several books by Vines, including his expository, complete and topical dictionaries/lexicons, but I have been unable to locate the particular definition that you've given us for "pisteuo" in any of them, so please tell us which one of Vine's books your definition comes from so that we can see it for ourselves. Thanks
Hello Jay (@Watchman22), I'm not sure that I will find the time needed to reply to everything that you've written to me in this thread until we get past the holidays, but I can make a few points/ask a few questions in the meantime/as time allows, so here goes.
My first question is this, why do you continue to insist that believe/believing is a "mistranslation" of the Greek transliterated word, pisteuo
Along with the example of James 2:19 (that I posited for you earlier on), let's take a look at some other verses that translate πιστεύω/pisteuo as "believe/believing". For instance,
1 Corinthians 1118 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I ~believe~ (pisteuo) it.
Now, if we go with your definition of pisteuo instead, here's how this verse reads.
1 Corinthians 1118 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I ~a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender~ (pisteuo) it.
Surely that can't be correct (even if you reword the definition a bit to fit the verse), anymore that it is correct to apply that particular definition of pisteuo to either one of its uses in James 2:19. "Believe", in the case of both of these verses (1 Corinthians 11:18 and James 2:19, that is) and MANY others, is clearly the correct translation of pisteuo.
Finally, even if pisteuo's only true definition is the one that you continue to point to and posit for us in this thread, it would still be incorrect to call "believe/believing" a "mistranslation" of the word if "believe/believing" is the closest word to it in English.
Of course, it is for this very reason that we turn to Greek and Hebrew lexicons and word studies (instead of using English dictionaries) to help us correctly define Biblical Hebrew and Greek words (along, of course, with help from our scholars, our linguists, theologians, pastors and teachers, IOW, who have studied and/or teach one or both languages in seminary/in church, as our arriving at the true definition of a Greek/Hebrew word includes FAR more than simply looking up the definition in a lexicon and deciding which one seems best
This post is already long enough, so I will ask an additional question or two in my next post below.
Happy New Year and God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I own several books by Vines, including his expository, complete and topical dictionaries/lexicons, but I have been unable to locate the particular definition that you've given us for "pisteuo" in any of them, so please tell us which one of Vine's books your definition comes from so that we can see it for ourselves. Thanks
YOU ASKED.
My first question is this, why do you continue to insist that believe/believing is a "mistranslation" of the Greek transliterated word, pisteuo
and/or that pisteuo's only true definition is "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender" (I'm not denying that the above is one of the possible definitions of pisteuo, but it is hardly the only definition).MY ANSWER.
I continue to insist the words believe, believer, and believing are mistranslations, mostly because of two things, the experience i had when I "accidentally by my account " fulfilled pisteuo, and having the greatest Bible scholar, linguist, theologian, pastor, and teacher of our time, possibly ever. And of course stating that will trigger a satanic attack, guaranteed!
I won't discuss most of my experience, but it lead me to kind of reverse engineering the how , what , and the why, of what God did to me. I spent every free moment seeking out those who could validate my experience. I didn't take long for God to lead me to that gifted teacher. But there was one big thing that he taught in depth, and said that this should be taught on the first day of any Bible school . And that is the Greek word pisteuo couldn't be translated into the English language. ( see the A,B, Cs of faith thread) That was a huge piece of the mosaic puzzle that would consume me for the next 38 years.
Now with the experience and this great scholar as datum points, I began to put together this puzzle. It would take years before the keystone piece was given to me. And that was getting the Vines Expository Dictionary of NT words, "A comprehensive dictionary of the Original Greek Words, with their Precise Meanings for English readers."
On page 411, it states this.
" The main elements in faith in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from faith in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun (pistis) and the corresponding verb pisteuo; they are 1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth, e. g. 2 thess. 2: 11, 12. 2) a personal surrender to Him. Jn. 1:12. 3) a conduct inspired by such surrender. 2 Cor. 5:7. Prominence is given to one or the other according to the context. All this stands in contrast to "BELIEF" in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's faith was not Gods promise ( that was the occasion of its exercise); his faith rested on God Himself, Rom. 4: 17, 20, 21."
So this definition of the most important word in Scripture, lines up with what I was shown and did , before I ever knew about it. I made a decision, to turn my life and will over to God. And Biblical promises started to happen. When I read the Vines definition of pisteuo, it started a whole other aspect of searching the truth about the salvation journey. I think I can admit, that without the experience I'm having, reading the Vines definition probably wouldn't mean much. But the fact that I know it's true, puts me in a position to try and persuade others down this path by using the evidence that I feel compelled to share.
My facts are irrefutable, the called out ones just refuse to accept them. I wish they could see the content of what I'm saying, instead of the flawed vessel they feel determined to trample.
I call it a mistranslation, because it puts those who think the Grace deposit is given by "believing" in what God said and did, making Gods word the object of their faith, instead of God Himself. That's a problem, there's no surrendered life or a life that's inspired by such surrender. Thats the key!
Disclaimer:
That gifted teacher never stood on that Vines definition of pisteuo as far as I know. He did teach a surrendered life, he did teach that the words "believe, believing, and believer were at best "BAD" translations.
In conclusion of this first set of questions,
The writers used pisteuo 248 times in the NT.
They either were communicating a firm conviction, a personal surrender to Him, or a life inspired by such surrender. That's it! If they wanted to use words like trust, there's 6 other Greek words they would have used. If they wanted to use obedience, there's 8 other words they would have used. The word believe is not a word or state of being that they acknowledge in their language. Their language is precise.
I will get into your question on scripture in the next reply.
Beware what you call satanic when you lead God's children astray with your gnostic nonsense. Behold your teacher whom you call "the greatest Bible scholar, linguist, theologian, pastor, and teacher of our time, possibly ever":
Your personal experience is not the basis for anything, which is why no one accepts it.
Only gnostics view grace as a deposit that they receive upon knowing God.
"[The Valentinian gnostics] themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them."
Against Heresies, book 1, chapter 6, paragraph 4
Hello Jay (@Watchman22), I'm not sure that I will find the time needed to reply to everything that you've written to me in this thread until we get past the holidays, but I can make a few points/ask a few questions in the meantime/as time allows, so here goes.
My first question is this, why do you continue to insist that believe/believing is a "mistranslation" of the Greek transliterated word, pisteuo
Along with the example of James 2:19 (that I posited for you earlier on), let's take a look at some other verses that translate πιστεύω/pisteuo as "believe/believing". For instance,
1 Corinthians 1118 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I ~believe~ (pisteuo) it.
Now, if we go with your definition of pisteuo instead, here's how this verse reads.
1 Corinthians 1118 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I ~a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender~ (pisteuo) it.
Surely that can't be correct (even if you reword the definition a bit to fit the verse), anymore that it is correct to apply that particular definition of pisteuo to either one of its uses in James 2:19. "Believe", in the case of both of these verses (1 Corinthians 11:18 and James 2:19, that is) and MANY others, is clearly the correct translation of pisteuo.
Finally, even if pisteuo's only true definition is the one that you continue to point to and posit for us in this thread, it would still be incorrect to call "believe/believing" a "mistranslation" of the word if "believe/believing" is the closest word to it in English.
Of course, it is for this very reason that we turn to Greek and Hebrew lexicons and word studies (instead of using English dictionaries) to help us correctly define Biblical Hebrew and Greek words (along, of course, with help from our scholars, our linguists, theologians, pastors and teachers, IOW, who have studied and/or teach one or both languages in seminary/in church, as our arriving at the true definition of a Greek/Hebrew word includes FAR more than simply looking up the definition in a lexicon and deciding which one seems best
This post is already long enough, so I will ask an additional question or two in my next post below.
Happy New Year and God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I own several books by Vines, including his expository, complete and topical dictionaries/lexicons, but I have been unable to locate the particular definition that you've given us for "pisteuo" in any of them, so please tell us which one of Vine's books your definition comes from so that we can see it for ourselves. Thanks
Ok, first lets look at some fun facts concerning scripture.
1) In the original texts, there is no chapter and verse, no punctuation.
2) The translators were stylists, they fashioned the Greek texts into the English so as to fit the style of the time.
3) Number one rule of translating scripture. Don't take an unknown scripture that were not sure of, and use it to knock down a mountain of scripture that we are sure of. Instead, try and make the unsure scripture fit into the mountain of scripture we a sure of.(Which is exactly what your proposing with James 2, and Cor. 11 from my perspective.)
4) Pisteuo defined as a firm conviction, a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender is used 248 times with those definitions communicated. I'm sure there are a few others you can present that also wouldn't make sense in English. But we cant say because it doesn't make sense in our English, we need to find another word that lessens the core meaning they were communicating.
So with those guardrails up, lets look at James 2 :19.
I use a Tischendorfs translation of the codex Sinaiticus. Wide margin, with the different words highlighted at the bottom that show the differences between the codex Sinaiticus, the codex Vaticanus, and the codex Alexandrinus.
James 2:19,
"Thou believest that their is one God; thou doest well: the devils also "believe" and tremble."
This is how i would translate pisteuo in James 2:19 staying true to the words the original writers chose.
James 2:19,
"You personally surrender your lives to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender in that there is one supreme deity; you do well: the demons also surrender their lives to him and live a life inspired by such surrender and shudder."
Comment: One of the reasons this scripture is hard to make fit, is that were talking about demons. Demons "are" surrendering themselves to Him and living a life inspired by such surrender, in that their entire existence is built around staying away from Him.
So with our fulfilling of pisteuo being a moving towards God, the demons fulfilling pisteuo are moving away from God. Which means they should have used the word "Apisteuo" which is the reverse action of "pisteuo".
And a side note: How can a demon be put in the same (faithing) condition as we are, when they have probably seen God at some point.
1Cor. 11:18,
"For first of all, when you come together in the church, i hear that there be divisions among you; and i partly "believe" it.
This is how i would translate 1Cor. 11:18 staying true to the words the original writers chose.
1 Cor. 11:18,
"For first of all, when you convene with the called out ones, i hear that there is dissentions among you; and there is a portion of me that's convicted to it."
"a firm conviction" for pisteuo or the mistranslated word believe.
I never said that "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender is the only translation that can be used for "pisteuo". there's also a firm conviction. And words like "trust", "committed to," "reliance upon" can be used not to violate the English style, as long as its understood trust, commitment, and reliance upon are coming from one in the state of a continually surrendered life. That is the most important understanding they were communicating with pisteuo, the core understanding is one that's continually surrendering their life to Him.
I'll wait for your reply.
That definition is not communicated in any of them. You're simply imagining things that aren't there
lol This "a personal surrender to him and a life inspired by such surrender" is your gnostic mantra that you continually repeat to maintain gnosis
Hello Jay, as my former senior pastor often said, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but you are also free to be wrong
I don't want to get hung up on this particular point for now, but I will probably return to it at a later time. For now, I'm interested in knowing a little bit more about two of the things that you said above,
1. What you mean by "fulfilled pisteuo", and how you accomplished it "accidentally"
2. What, exactly, you are saying will trigger a Satanic attack, as well what that attack consists of
3. I'd also like to know who your unnamed "Bible scholar" is (though if you'd prefer not to say for some reason, that's fine).
I'm still short on time, but I should begin to have more time to post going forward.
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
Gene Scott. He's dead and his wife has locked up all his videos for $$$, so his teachings are scarce
https://stanfordmag.org/contents/maverick-evangelist
Hello Jay, as my former senior pastor often said, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but you are also free to be wrong
I don't want to get hung up on this particular point for now, but I will probably return to it at a later time. For now, I'm interested in knowing a little bit more about two of the things that you said above,
1. What you mean by "fulfilled pisteuo", and how you accomplished it "accidentally"2. What, exactly, you are saying will trigger a Satanic attack, as well what that attack consists of3. I'd also like to know who your unnamed "Bible scholar" is (though if you'd prefer not to say for some reason, that's fine).
I'm still short on time, but I should begin to have more time to post going forward.
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
Man Deut, i wrote you off.
I enjoy your questions, but i hope the answers are helping you also.
I always hope that someone will ask the right questions too.
Hi Jay, yeah, sorry about that. Along with seeming to need additional time for almost everything this holiday season, I was also around a lot of sick people, and now I've joined their ranks 
(happily though, I was healthy for both Christmas and New Year ). Also, you certainly don't need to spend a lot of time answering the questions that I just asked you, just give me the basics and I'll let you know if I need to know more (because, quite frankly, I don't know how much time I'll be able to spend reading/posting here until I begin to feel a bit better than I do now, though I'd like to do whatever I can ).
Thanks! Talk to you soon (Dv).
~Deuteronomy/David
(happily though, I was healthy for both Christmas and New Year ). Also, you certainly don't need to spend a lot of time answering the questions that I just asked you, just give me the basics and I'll let you know if I need to know more (because, quite frankly, I don't know how much time I'll be able to spend reading/posting here until I begin to feel a bit better than I do now, though I'd like to do whatever I can ).Thanks! Talk to you soon (Dv).
~Deuteronomy/David
Hey Jay, I'm back again You said several other things in this thread that I'd like to get a better understanding of (from your POV) before moving on, so let me begin here:
BTW, I count 244 occurrences of pisteuo in the Bible, but hey, what's a few pisteuos between friends
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
You said several other things in this thread that I'd like to get a better understanding of (from your POV) before moving on, so let me begin here:Hmm, well, since you said that that ~is~ the definition of literally every use of pisteuo in the NT, your second statement above (which is from the same post) appears to be a contradiction of your earlier statement (as well a contradiction of what you have been saying about pisteuo throughout this thread). So, which is it, one definition or many (are you perhaps referring to its uses outside of the Bible)
BTW, I count 244 occurrences of pisteuo in the Bible, but hey, what's a few pisteuos between friends
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
Hey Jay, I'm back again
Hmm, well, since you said that that ~is~ the definition of literally every use of pisteuo in the NT, your second statement above (which is from the same post) appears to be a contradiction of your earlier statement (as well a contradiction of what you have been saying about pisteuo throughout this thread). So, which is it, one definition or many (are you perhaps referring to its uses outside of the Bible)
BTW, I count 244 occurrences of pisteuo in the Bible, but hey, what's a few pisteuos between friends
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
No problem Deuteronomy, I'll address those questions and the others in the am.
Hi Jay, concerning your comment above, I, of course, must disagree. Satan has not "surrendered" to God, rather, he's continually rebelling and at war with Him instead, as well with His angels and with us too, His people (just as much today as he was when the Lord Jesus walked among us .. Matthew 4:1-11). Granted, we cannot see the war that continues to rage in the spiritual realm all around us, but the Bible tells us about it, and as believers, we certainly feel the effects of it (as we do battle every day against Satan's and/or his demons' daily temptations).
The Bible also tells us to prepare (and how to prepare) for battle with Satan and his forces so that we can win the battles that we face .. e.g. Ephesians 6:10-17; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 2 Corinthians 10:5; James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:8-9.
There are also numerous descriptions of skirmishes and wars in heaven .. e.g. the Battle of Armageddon, as well things like the binding of Satan for 1,000 years) .. e.g. Revelation 12:7-12, 20:1-3, 7-10.
Finally, there is MUCH more than this to discuss about James 2 (and far more important things), but I will stop here and take that up in my next reply to you (this evening, hopefully).
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy (David)
Ephesians 6
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14 Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15 and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
.OK Deuteronomy let's get to the point your trying to make.
The precondition to receiving the Spirit of Christ is "pisteuo", Do we agree on that?
The Vines Greek dictionary defines "pisteuo " as. 1) "A firm conviction, 2) a personal surrender to Him, 3) a conduct inspired by such surrender. " Do we agree with that?
Your insinuating that these facts are my opinion, they're just facts that line up with my opinion.
So please answer those two questions.
I personally don't agree with it because the verse examples Vines gives for definitions 2 and 3 don't suggest personal surrender or conduct inspired by such surrender.