Rediscovering pisteuo.

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

You asked why I think pisteuo is the most important word in the Bible.

Obviously, there are words in the Bible more important than the word pisteuo on there own. But as i think I said, "for us" it's the most important word.
The reason for saying that is because pisteuo is the mandatory response, the key, that allows all the other important words to become ours. If pisteuo isn't fulfilled, and fulfilled correctly, none of the other important words avail anything. I hope that answers your question.

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

You also asked to expand on the statement, "Grace avails nothing. "

As for children, I understand they are born into a state of Grace, and remain there until a age of accountability.
Those who aren't capable because of a mental disorder, one that affects their ability to make a choice i would hopare in that same state of Grace.
Lots of grey areas to ponder that question.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

We've looked at the A,B,Cs of Faith and faithing. The views at least support that their are some following.

This thread will give important information about how saving faith and faithing has been lost to time.

This is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Jay

I know of 54 of the most qualified Bible translators in history who disagree with Vines on that important point as well as your source.

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

You asked about "the called out ones. "

Yes, the saints. We are called to be saints. The saints are a small group called out from among a larger group. Called to be perfected. Saints aren't perfect, saints are candidates for perfection. Saints in my understanding are in a paradoxical state, yes they are saved, and they are being saved at the same time.

Their is a salvation process thread that i would like to start that would explain my whole understanding on how the saints respond, start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey. Simply put, pisteuo or saving faith being "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender " starts, maintains, and completes the salvation process.

 

[Watchman22]

I know of 54 of the most qualified Bible translators in history who disagree with Vines on that important point as well as your source.

That just solidifies that having the narrow path experience trumps even the greatest translators.

What do you mean "as well as your source?"

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

As to the saints standing on the mistranslated words.
"Most" i stated because I would never put God in a box. Could a saint start out standing on the mistranslated words and eventually come to a place to start continually surrendering their lives to Him? Absolutely, I'm one of them.
The other reason if you really listen their own words will tell you the exact state their at. We are we all at different stages in the salvation journey, it's part of our perfecting process to warn of the stumbling blocks to the goers behind us. And i take that very seriously.

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

Yes, the Greek doesn't acknowledge a state of being in a neutral state, aka believing. They only acknowledge a state of pisteuo, moving towards something, or Apisteuo, moving away from something. No middle ground.

And that's why it's such a big deal to have the mind of Christ. That keeps the saint moving forward towards Him. Without that, the saint is moving away from Him, unless he's the testing phase of the salvation process.

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

Your reading John 5:24 in the English, with the mistranslated word "believes ".

In the Greek, where they understand exactly what pisteuo means it would read like this.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say unto you, he who hears (and is understanding) my word (divine message) and personally surrenders themselves to Him and lives a life inspired by such surrender to Him that sent me, has everlasting life,

The second half of the Vines definition of pisteuo is the key. It's just not a one-time surrender, it's also a life of decisions that support the surrender. So that would conclude a continuously surrendered life, every day, all day if necessary.

The word "believes " causes a lot of damage. Bout thank God we crossed paths and you can make a choice you couldn't make yesterday. If there's any other questions about how to apply this , I'm willing to help.

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

This is a reply to your concern about the object of faith being Gods Word.

You don't think that when certain called out ones stand on the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing, when pushed, will say the only requirement to receive the Holy spirit is to " believe " in what Christ said and did, His word. They will vehemently defend that. No surrendered life required and certainly no ongoing surrendered life is required according to them.

I run across them continually.

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

About the demons also believing .

James 2:19 is one Scripture that brings up more questions than answers.

And this is why. Pisteuo being "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender " it's not something we have seen before. Pisteuo is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. Well demons more than likely have seen God before and certainly have a different relationship with Him than we do.

So I default to the rule of interpreting Scripture. "Don't take a Scripture your not certain about, and use it to knock down a mountain of Scripture you are certain about.

I just think there's more to this Scripture than we can fully understand.

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

I love it when someone asks the right questions. So I hope I can give you a response worthy of it.

The question you asked was about knowing Him prior to salvation.

I'll start by asking some questions.
How do we in this day and age understand and get to know God? By His word, yes?

Well, God's word was translated into the English until the 1500's. Before that certain societies had access to the spoken word, and if you were well off maybe had access to some earlier texts. But for the most part, the larger part of the population had no access to God's word for the first 1500 years.

Does that mean that because "nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them" the Father was handcuffed from doing so for most of the planet?

Of coarse not, the Father could have called out anyone at anytime to Christ. Because the only requirement to become "In Christ " is pisteuo, a personal surrender to Him "the caller" and a life inspired by such surrender "to the caller ".

No requirements needed to know Him prior to a correct fulfillment of pisteuo.

That requirement comes from the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing that requires God's word to be the object of faith and faithing, not God Himself.

We could start another thread just on that topic alone.

 

[Watchman22]

Hello Jay, I agree with most of what you said in the OP, though I do have a few questions about some of it. For instance, while I think that I understand why you believe that "pisteuo" is the most important word in the Bible, I wish that you'd elaborate on that a bit by quickly explaining why a different word, like the Object of our faith, is not more important, or certain other words, like "agape" (or even "pistis"), for instance, are not

Also, it seems to me that the sentiment above (see the words that I highlighted in bold), which I assume is at the heart of what you believe about all of this, is something that should be restated and/or more carefully explained by you because of the obvious problems associated with saying what you did (preborn babies and those who die as infants/toddlers, who are not capable of pisteuo, come quickly to mind, for instance).


I have a couple of questions for you about the above. First, by "called out ones" I assume that you are referring to the saints, yes And second, those who are defined properly as "saints" are, by definition, already "saved", yes, so it seems to me that they would be wise to continue with whatever belief helped to get them to that point (of coming to saving faith and receiving eternal life from the Lord Jesus).

As a secondary thought (or question), I'm also wondering why you believe that "most" saints stand not only on these mistranslated words, but also on the particular understanding of those words that you've assigned to them here, as well How do you know that/what evidence led you to believe that that is true Thanks


Is there no sense of a present/ongoing reality allowed for by Greek grammar then, only something in the future that we are "moving towards" instead I think that I must be misunderstanding you here, so please explain what you mean (or perhaps, what I'm missing?).

Also, if this is true, and as a "for instance" then, what are we to make of verses that say things like this one does?

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and ~believes Him~ who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and ~does not~ come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

Doesn't v24 indicate that we receive "eternal life" from God at the very moment that we both "hear" and "believe" Him


I don't believe that I've ever heard someone specify that the object of their faith is God's "word", ~alone~ (IOW, God's word APART from Him, the Divine Author of those words), because, in my experience anyway, whenever someone has said that they believe and trust in God's word, what they really mean is that they believe and trust in Him!!


While I agree with what you are saying (or I think that I do anyway), there is far more to it than simply gaining a proper, Biblical understanding the definition of "pisteuo", is there not For instance,

James 2​

19 You believe/pisteuo that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe/pisteuo, and shudder. ​

That's true, but how can anyone commence with living the Christian life, the life of faith/faithing 1. before coming to know Him and/or 2. prior to being redeemed, forgiven, justified, saved and indwelt by Him

Also, you 'seem' to believe that our salvation, initial and progressive sanctification, and even our eventual glorification is either largely or wholly dependent upon us, ~apart~ from the changes wrought in us by God (past, present and ongoing), as well from the power and continual help & guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the Scriptures teach us, is it (e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; 2 Corinthinans 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25).

Again, I am, no doubt, misunderstanding you here, so please help me understand what you are actually saying (or what I am missing about all of this).


Agreed (however, for the sake of clarity, Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through "pistis", not "pisteuo", apart from anything that "we" do, and also that these three, grace, faith and our salvation, in general, are all "gifts" to us from God).

Well, that went on WAY longer than I thought that it would Sorry about that. I know that it may not seem like it, but I think that we are on the same page about most of your OP (I just felt that I needed clarity from you about some of it to be sure, so thank you ahead of time for that ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - I think that the Reformers have a LOT of important things to say about "faith" (some of which I'll add to this thread in my next post). For now, here are some of the words of Calvin (and Luther too), who both said the very same things about saving faith/sola fide.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"
.​

Here's my reply to your concern that I'm focused to much on what is required for me to do to receive salvation. Maybe you see it as works salvation?

Pisteuo or faithing, personally surrendered life to Him and a life inspired by such surrender is the one thing that He will not force upon us. He can do everything else but we have to faithe. He could provide redemption, and the covering of our sins. He can provide direction . He can create mansions, pour His Spirit out on us, but without Faith and faithing ( a continually surrendered life) it is impossible to please God.

I look at it like I was in a battle with God. I was his enemy at one time. He won the battle by putting His foot on my neck to make a decision. I simply surrendered, and have been surrendering my life and will over to Him for 38 years.

Now, what rights do I have as a slave to the one I surrendered to? None! He is the despot over my life plain and simple. The only thing that is required by Him to keep that relationship is to live a life that reflects the fact that it's not my life anymore, but His now.

Pisteuo is a verb, an action word. That is the requirement. It's not adding anything the finished work of Christ's life, death, and resurrection, it's the correct response to it.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

He is the despot over my life plain and simple.

Your use of language regarding God reveals a lot about how you view him IMO. And it's really not surptising considering that you learned from an abusive tyrant like Gene Scott. How can you bear good fruit when the role model you learned from produces bad fruit?

Keep in mind that in the parable of the talents, the last servant to give an account of his works considered his master to be unyielding and austere, and as result produced no fruit and was cast into outer darkness .

 

[studier]

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

I do not think you can provide any historical or lexical basis for these statements.

Please provide links to any references you'd like us to look at.

In lieu of doing so, there is zero reason to accept your theory.

Pisteuo in the Bible derives most of its meaning beyond the simple lexical meanings used throughout history from context thereby allowing God to explain how He uses the word and what He means by it. In doing so pisteuo is well recognized as being relational, but this come mostly from context.

 

[studier]

For others reading this thread:

This theory seems to be circulating around the internet, but like this version, without listing sources. Here are a few examples:

• here
• here
• especially here if nothing else look at this site - you'll need to get to the site and search "faithing" from your browser - here's the linked site spelled out "https://saragrahi.org/z-03-moving-f...ord-caitanyas-golden-age-of-kali-yuga-part-1/"

Make your own determination.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

That just solidifies that having the narrow path experience trumps even the greatest translators.

What do you mean "as well as your source?"

II Peter 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Over 5,000 copies of the oldest and best Scripture documents trump the Dead Sea Scrolls that a Jewish cult had stashed away. The German Critics scriptures were proven to be stained with tannins to give their snow white appearance that of oxidative age.
These are just a couple among many reasons why your theory is excluded from history's best translators who actually spoke fluent common Greek better than the contemporary ones.
The King James Bible is absolutely correct in it's translation of pistis, etc.
Believe is equivalent to Faith.
They are synonyms.
This is not a difficult concept.
Those who taught you that pisteuo was translated incorrectly were wrong. I doubt if they could do much as speak modern Greek better than a 4th grader.
Guess what?
You aren't the only one who has been deceived.
I wasted time listening to cocky arrogant canines barking Greek like they were experts too.
Then I repented/ changed my mind and rejected their works based teaching about salvation.
I suggest spending a period of time with an open mind and King James Bible pleading for clarity on this topic.

Your narrow way analogy does not apply to the Traditional texts.
Jesus applied it to HIMSELF exclusively as the ONLY Way to the sheepfold....life.

Matthew 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Watchman22]

We've looked at the A,B,Cs of Faith and faithing. The views at least support that their are some following.

This thread will give important information about how saving faith and faithing has been lost to time.

This is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Jay

Bummed

 

[studier]

Bummed

Part of the process.

Check your facts. Much to look at before Tyndale. Check Latin "credo". Check Middle English "bileuen". Check Syriac and Coptic. Find historical research proving what you're saying re: Tyndale - doubt you'll find it. Do more work with Scripture.

Just recommending.

 

[Watchman22]

Part of the process.

Check your facts. Much to look at before Tyndale. Check Latin "credo". Check Middle English "bileuen". Check Syriac and Coptic. Find historical research proving what you're saying re: Tyndale - doubt you'll find it. Do more

Just recommending.

My intention was to put a spotlight on the word "pisteuo ". Not so much on Tindale. Knowing Tindale or other translators doesn't hold a lot of interest to me.

I see pisteuo as" personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " Vines"

You been clear, you don't accept Vines definition and that's your right. But you won't replace your disagreement with a better definition.

Can you replace the Vines with a better definition? One or two sentences please.

If you don't give me a short, clear answer to that question, we won't be able to go into the Scriptures or continue a discussion.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Can you replace the Vines with a better definition? One or two sentences please.

Yes, that which is found in every other lexicon that describes faith as being persuaded by something and placing confidence in it.