I have yet to hear anyone in this chatroom, or in any chatroom, or anyone I have ever spoke to claim they believe this.
Predestination is misunderstood...
- Thread starter Genez
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Our will/boule/thelema SHOULD be swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ.
Psa_40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa_143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.
Heb_10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb_10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Well this is all fine and well that he did wonderful things for the church. But I don't see that his view on predestination is correct.
Also I have made friends with calvinists here.
I don't see how people should argue with his doctrine, to prove there theory right either.
Many good people believe there correct, because there loved or because there opinion is favoured in the church.
There goodness becomes a pride that makes them feel they can be right about everything.
Also good people who do no wrong can start to believe there more entitled to give lecture,.
We all know that John Calvins views on predestination, determines the beliefs of all Calvinists.
But also it determines how predestination should be viewed.by none Calvinists.
I have to say predestination is so much more wonderful than this.
They don't say it in those terms, but they place the impetus on man in many ways.
C. People Are Elect in Christ's Spiritual Body, the Church.
Passages
Ephesians 1:3-14 - Paul is addressing the elect in Christ. But the rest of the book refers to them as the church, the body of Christ - this is the theme of the book.
1:22,23 - Jesus is head of the church, His body.
2:13,16 - To be reconciled "in Christ" is to be reconciled in His body or household (v19), the temple of the Lord (v21,22).
3:10,11 - We are predestined according to God's purpose (1:11), but His eternal purpose is revealed in the church.
5:22-33 - Jesus is Head and Savior of the body, having loved it and gave Himself to sanctify and cleanse it. Note that it is a body or group that is destined to be saved. [Cf. 3:21; 4:4,16
1 Peter 2:9,10 - The ones "chosen" or elected are a race, a nation, a priesthood, a people. We are chosen as a body, a group, the church.
Note the circumstances of those in the church.
Acts 20:28 - Jesus purchased the church with His blood.
Acts 2:47 - All the saved are added to the body (church) by the Lord.
Clearly the church is the elect, those destined to be saved. [Matt. 16:18]
But how does one enter the church?
1 Peter 1:22,23 - The elect (1:1,2; 2:9) are those who "purified your souls" in obedience to the truth and so were born again - born into God's family, the church (1 Tim. 3:15)
1 Corinthians 12:13 - We are baptized into the one body.
Acts 2:38,41,47 - When we repent and are baptized, we receive remission and are added by the Lord to the church.
So, from eternity, God knew there would be people willing to obey Him. He purposed to establish the church (Eph. 3:10,11) as the body that would contain all saved people (5:23,25). These would be His special people, the elect (1:3-14). This body He decreed to be destined for eternal glory (1:3-14).
However, each individual has been given by God the power to choose to meet the conditions to enter that body or not enter. Once in the body, each has the power to continue faithful and receive the reward or to fall away and be lost (these will be removed from the body before it enters glory - Matt. 13:41-43; Rev. 17:14; 2 Peter 1:10).
II. The Sovereignty of God
Since God is the absolute, all-powerful ruler of the Universe, it is argued that He must absolutely govern everything that happens on earth (see quotes from Westminster Confession). This means He must personally choose whether or not each individual will be saved. The decision must be completely His, and no one else can determine the outcome. To say that man has a choice is to deny the absolute sovereignty of God. [Eph. 1:11; Rom. 8:28; 11:36; 1 Chron. 29:11; 1 Tim. 6:15; Psalm 115:3; Isaiah 46:10]
Response: There is no doubt that God has the sovereign right to do whatever He wills to do. The question is: What is it that God has willed to do? Has God chosen to unconditionally determine the eternal destiny of each individual, or has He chosen to offer salvation to all men and give each man the choice whether or not to accept based on conditions? If God is truly sovereign, then if He wishes, He has the right to give man the power to choose!
A. Has God Ever Granted Anyone the Right to Choose Anything?
If God has ever granted anyone the right to choose anything, then it would not violate His sovereignty to give man the right to choose salvation.
Calvinists admit that Adam had the right to choose whether or not to obey God. If so, then God's sovereignty is not violated simply because He gives man the power to choose. Why then would it violate His sovereignty to give us also the right to choose?
If man never has the right to choose about anything, then God must have decided to make man (and Satan) sinners!
If God's sovereignty means He has decreed everything about men, and we have no choice about anything, then He must have decreed that Adam and all men must commit sin. This means God is responsible for the fact men commit sin and suffer the consequences. Man had no choice. We are all sinners because God chose for us all to become sinners.
Yet God hates sin and commands men not to sin (Prov. 15:9; 6:16,17; etc.). So the consequence of Calvinism is that God decreed that man must do the very thing God hates and commands men not to do. God is therefore divided against Himself (Matt. 12:25; 1 Cor. 1:13; 14:33). How can they avoid the charge that their view makes God hypocritical?
Illustration: Calvinism makes God like a father who commands his son not to go in the street, and if he goes, the father will spank him. Then the father carries the son into the street and spanks him for going there!
B. There Is a Difference Between What God Unconditionally Decrees and What He Chooses to Permit.
God is the absolute ruler of the Universe. But this does not deny His right to give men the power to choose.
God unconditionally decrees that some things must come to pass.
In this case, His decree must come to pass, and no one can change it. [1 Chron. 29:11; 1 Tim. 6:15; Psa 115:3; 33:11; Job 23:13; Isaiah 14:27; 46:9,10; Prov. 21:30]
Yet the Scriptures teach that God has decreed to allow men (and Satan) to have the power to choose and make some decisions.
Consider some examples:
* God does not tempt man to sin (James 1:13). Yet man faces temptation. Why? Because God permits Satan (within limits) to tempt man (Job 1). [Note 2 Cor. 4:4; John 12:31]
* God hates sin and commands men not to practice it (see above). Yet sin exists. God is not the source of it, else He is not righteous but contradicts Himself and forces men to do what He Himself hates!
The truth is that God gave man the power to choose to obey or disobey, having warned them of the consequences. Having decreed that man has the power to choose, God respects His own decree and permits His creatures to choose, even when those choices displease God.
* In the same way, God has decreed (as shown in the Scriptures already studied) that man has the power to choose whether or not to obey His conditions of forgiveness and thereby become one of His elect.
No, man is not free to do absolutely anything we want (can we destroy God?). God has placed limits on us, but one thing He has granted us is the power to obey Him or not. This is not a violation of God's sovereignty, nor is it weakness on His part, for He is the one who decreed that man has this power!
Do you deny that a sovereign God could give man the power to choose?
If God is truly sovereign, then He can decree whatever He chooses. If so, then He can decree that man has the power to choose! If you deny this, then it is you, not us, who deny the sovereignty of God!
The question is not whether or not God is sovereign. The question is: What did the sovereign God decide to do? The Bible says God decreed to give man the power to choose whether or not to obey. This is what it means for "all things" to work according to His purpose.
C. God's Sovereign Government Is Controlled by His Will and Character.
God must act in harmony with His own will.
Man can never limit God, but God can and often does limit what He does according to His will. He may choose not to exercise certain powers He possesses in order to accomplish some higher purpose.
The consequence of Calvinism is that God acts in ways that are contrary to His own revealed will. He says that man can choose whether to obey or disobey Him and that salvation is for all and that there are conditions everyone can meet to be saved (as shown in preceding Scriptures). However, Calvinism says none of this is true, we have no choice, etc.
God must act according to His character
There are some things God cannot do because they would violate His character.
* God cannot lie - Titus 1:2
* God cannot sin (He is always righteous) - 2 Chron. 19:7
* God cannot deny Himself - 2 Tim. 2:13
* God cannot change - Hebrews 13:8
The consequence of Calvinism is that God continually acts contrary to His character. He hates evil, yet He decrees that men practice evil. He cannot lie, yet He says things in the Bible that are not true, etc.
That is bearing false witness against them.
You can;t claim they do it, when they do not.
Thats where fatalism gets is wrong. it assumes we believe mad comes up with faith on their own. That god is not acting on them, thats not true.
The only difference between us is a fatalist Says God regenerates them first and then they are unable to reject,,
The rest of us are Drawn to God, Convicted by God, and taught by God in our state, and chose to make a decision.. or chose to deny or reject.
I'm not bearing false anything. I witness it every day. Many say the natural man can understand the gospel and respond in faith before the Holy Spirit begins working. Many people say we can choose God in the natural estate. And that God doesn't begin His work until one exercises faith first.
I've pointed it out throughout this thread. The next post I see I'll reference your name to the post.
As to the second question, anyone who believes we aren't made alive first is in effect saying man in his natural state believes. Regeneration is what enables a person to act in a spiritual manner. The natural man cannot operate in this realm. That's the point of 1 Corinthians 2:14.
I will look for it
Thats different than says God does not work on ue and bring us to repentance..
Again, This is nonsensical. And it has God making us alive in Sin, which is against his righteousness, (He can not relate with sin) Against his holiness, (He is perfect. and as a perfect God. again, he can not relate with sin) and against his love (He died for the world. and he wants us to ask. He will not force it on us, or give anyone a special treatment. while rejecting everyone else.
All 1 cor 14 says is that without help from God, no one can understand, we have been through this.
God helped me, I did not act on my own.. nor did I conjure up faith by myself..
Thats why I asked for specific examples, If you think everyone who believe we come to faith first does what you accused them of. then I am afraid, as I said, you are bearing false witness/ But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and look for an example. I have been proven wrong before.. I am sure I will be proven wrong again
You were doing well until the bolded part. BUT that grace does not guarantee our salvation? I guess we can't call that kind of grace saving grace, can we? But I ask: Who can thwart God's purposes?
”I know [Lord] that You can do all things; no plan of Yours can be thwarted.” (Job 42:2)
~”The Lord foils the plans of the nations [the wicked]; He thwarts the purposes of the [wicked] peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of His heart through all generations.” (Ps. 33:10,11)
~”O Lord, God of our fathers, are You not the God who is in Heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. Power and might are in Your hand, and no one can withstand You.” (2 Chron. 20:6)
~”Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.” (Prov. 19:21)
~”The Lord works out everything for His own ends –even the wicked for a day of disaster.” (Prov. 16:4)
~”There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord.” (Prov. 21:30)
God's will is not contingent on ours. He works out all things according to the counsel of his will. And he has mercy and compassion on whoever he desires to have such, for such things are not dependent on our will. Furthermore, dead people are a lot worse off than merely being crippled! A physically crippled person has some ability, in one form or another, but the dead have none! The dead need to brought back to life before they can respond positively to the gospel. The unregenerate are enslaved to the law of sin and death, and need to be set free before they can do anything pleasing to God. Consider this resurrection from the dead to life passage carefully, please, and explain how anyone can resist that kind of power (which we both believe is grace!) -- the same kind of power that raised Jesus from his tomb!
Eph 1:18-20
18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
NIV
And this isn't the first time Paul speaks to such omnipotent power that was necessary for us to believe. In addition to this resurrection power, he also likened God's grace to creation power!
2 Cor 4:6
6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
NIV
This passage speaks to saving knowledge! These kinds of passages (and more) are the reason the Reformers rightly believed in irresistible grace. God either purposed to actually save people or he purposed only to make salvation possible for them. God is actually a Savior or he's a potential savior. God's will is totally free and sovereign or it's contingent on the will of his free moral agents. Salvation is either a miraculous act of God or it is not.
If God wanted a million bucks, do you think he could will that into existence by his infinite power? But if you cannot get what you "will", then this proves your will is limited by your finiteness. Compared to the will of God, I'd say your will would be diminished.
Here we have an example of what I was saying. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. It is a Godly sorrow that is not to be repented of. The source of the sorrow is God Himself. It didn't originate with you or me. If God doesn't do this, men will never repent.
Here's another. Jesus is God. He hung out with sinners. So God, in choosing not to destroy Adam and Eve has done nothing but encounter sin and its effects. So the understanding you gave of God concerning His relationship to sin must have another explanation. And He made us alive so we would discover our sinfulness. Then He gave sorrow so we would confess it. He also gave hearing so we would hear the gospel and believe. I've laid this out for you from Acts 2:37. It's all included.
I realize this isn't likely to alter your perspective. But your understanding has spiritually dead people understanding spiritual reality apart from the Spirit.
No, I'm not. I hadn't even heard the term until yesterday. But I do believe that salvation begins and ends with God. He is certainly the author and finisher of our faith. I also believe the relationship is incredibly dynamic.Oh...so you, too, are a supralapsarian? Kool!
Some wonderful verses in here, I ain't got time to study it at the moment, I'm busy sanding wood
But I have read your post, and I see Good insight,
But I only see one person as the elect and That's Jesus.
When your saved I feel Jesus is the elect in you.
This must be put first, before anyone considered themselves elect.
When you read verses like, if at all possible the elect can not be deceived.
How many people not grown in the lord, would forget they won't be deceived if they seek Jesus in the heart.
Or how many people would use that verse as a higher ground to justify themselves.
The difference between the natural and the spiritual, applies to the saved people as well.
Because those blessed with the fruits of the spirits can all be led by natural thoughts and emotions.
So nobody is elect without the elect (Jesus living in him) and to guide them.
And to will there steps
As Jesus is the fountain of youth, the sower of seeds. Who's seed, The living water ( his spiritual blood) is born in the Holy spirit.
With out the living water of the Holy spirit flowing through your heart, nobody can be elect.
You won't even care then.
You'll be automatically good friends once the Lord can get you into your resurrection bodies.
You miss entirely the larger principle taught in the the passage. The persecuted audience to whom the writer was addressing (primarily Jewish believers) was in danger of falling away (apostatizing) from the faith, hence the repeated calls throughout the epistle for perseverance (Heb 3:12-19; 10:36; 12:1.) Professing Christians, too, can apostatize, just as Judas did and king Saul did, etc.
ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος is the opposite of the πνευματικός who has received the Holy Spirit (1Co_2:12 f., 15); he is therefore one πνεῦμα (the Holy Spirit) μὴ ἔχων (Jud_1:19). Such a man—who is not essentially different from the σαρκικός (see on 1Co_3:1), but the mental side of whose nature is here brought forward by the word ψυχικός—is not enlightened and sanctified by the Spirit of God, but is governed by the ψυχή, the principle of life for the σάρξ, so that the sphere in which he works and strives is not that of the divine truth and the divine ζωή, but the purely human activity of the understanding, and, as regards practical things, the interests of the life of sense, the ἐπιθυμίαι ψυχικαί, 4Ma_1:32, the ἐπιθυμίαι ἀνθρώπων, not the θέλημα Θεοῦ, 1Pe_4:2. Comp generally, Weiss, biblische Theol. p. 270 f. The higher principle of life, the human πνεῦμα,[419] which he has, is not laid hold of and quickened by the Holy Spirit; the regeneration by the Holy Spirit, who operates upon the human spirit and thereby brings about the renewal of the man (comp Joh_3:6), has not yet taken place with him; hence the psychical man is really the natural man, i.e. not yet enlightened and sanctified by the Spirit of God, not yet born again,[421]
Valid statement brother-which goes with this-
But the natural man,.... Not a babe in Christ, one that is newly born again, for though such have but little knowledge of spiritual things, yet they have a taste, and do relish and desire, and receive the sincere milk of the word, and grow thereby; but an unregenerate man, that has no knowledge at all of such things; not an unregenerate man only, who is openly and notoriously profane, abandoned to sensual lusts and pleasures; though such a man being sensual, and not having the Spirit, must be a natural man; but rather the wise philosopher, the Scribe, the disputer of this world; the rationalist, the man of the highest attainments in nature, in whom reason is wrought up to its highest pitch; the man of the greatest natural parts and abilities, yet without the Spirit and grace of God, mentioned 1Co_1:20 and who all along, both in that chapter and in this, quite down to this passage, is had in view: indeed, every man in a state of nature, who is as he was born, whatever may be the inward furniture of his mind, or his outward conduct of life, is but a natural man, and such an one
receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: not the things relating to the deity, personality, and perfections of the Holy Spirit, though these the natural man knows not, nor receives; nor the things done by him, particularly the operations of his grace on the souls of men in regeneration, concerning which he says, as Nicodemus did, "how can these things be?" but the truths of the Gospel before spoken of; so called, because they are contained in the Scriptures edited by the Spirit of God, are the deep things of God, which he searches into and reveals; and because they are made known by him, who is given and received for that end and purpose, that the saints might know them; and because they are delivered by the preachers of the Gospel, in words which he teacheth; now these the natural man receives not in the love of them, so as to approve of and like them, truly to believe them, cordially embrace them, and heartily be subject to them, profess and obey them, but on the contrary abhors and rejects them:
for they are foolishness unto him; they are looked upon by him as absurd, and contrary to reason; they do not agree with his taste, he disrelishes and rejects them as things insipid and distasteful; he regards them as the effects of a crazy brain, and the reveries of a distempered head, and are with him the subject of banter and ridicule:
neither can he know them: as a natural man, and whilst he is such, nor by the help and mere light of nature only; his understanding, which is shut unto them, must be opened by a divine power, and a superior spiritual light must be thrown into it; at most he can only know the literal and grammatical sense of them, or only in the theory, notionally and speculatively, not experimentally, spiritually, and savingly:
--which is happening here, IF we have the discernment to dokimazo the pneumatoi-try the spirits.
I am not interested in philosophizing re the Scriptures-which is also what is happening here. Not saying YOU are guilty of it.
J.
And since we're made in God's image, neither is the Image Maker's will "unfettered"!