Predestination is misunderstood...

[Everlasting-Grace]

All good stuff. Thanks. But it really boils down to this: what is a spiritually dead person capable of? And what is actually true of God compared to what we believe is true of God?
Your closing statement is a good example. What does it mean to have ears to hear? Is this an alertness on our part? Or is it a supernatural imparting? How people answer those questions will influence their understanding.
We are a long way from a unity of the faith. And forums such as this are helpful so long as discussions don't devolve into insult sessions.

He is capable of doing what the Tax collector did. To do what Abraham Did. To do what Paul did, To do what everyone who has ever come to God and cried out for mercy did.

He is also capable of taking the same knowledge and same conviction, and reject it.

He who believes is not condemned, He who believes is condemned already.

Ye must be born again (regenerated) How does this happen?

4 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus even called out Nicodemus, saying you are a teacher and do not know these things?

As moses lifted the serpent. Those who looked to the serpent in faith died. Those ho rejected died.

In the same token, Jesus is raised up. Thos who look in faith live, those who do not will die..(are already dead really)

He came to die for the world. not judge it, He cam that the world MAY be saved (not that it will be saved)

That in a nutshell is how we are regenerated, born again, Made alive

 

[Sipsey]

I agree the cross opened salvation to all. But God hasn't sought out all. If He had, missionaries wouldn't have been necessary. But they were sent to introduce the gospel to people groups who before that time knew not God. Before that time, these groups were not sought out. Who delivered the gospel to Indians in America? For many hundreds of years they were left without the gospel. This is just one example of many. God isn't always striving with men.

It might just be my idiocentric thinking, but it seems to me that the moment someone becomes positive in their thinking towards God, He will make a way for that person to have the oppertunity for eternal life. Otherwise, from our narrow human viewpoint, God would seem to be unfair.

However, we know that’s not the case. My boiled down version of salvation goes something like this;
The Gospel is spoken, heard, or read by someone who reacts in one of two ways;
1) I hear and understand what you say, but I do not believe it.
2) I hear and understand what you say, and I do truly believe it.

 

[Cameron143]

The promise is God will call people to be baptised, why is that friend

What we do outwardly is designed to reveal what is true of us inwardly. An oft heard criticism of the Jews voiced by God was the inconsistency of this in His people. They would draw near to Him with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him. In other words, they outwardly performed the requirements of the commandments, but without the attending inward reality. They worshipped truthfully, but not spiritually.

I know you believe baptism is necessary for salvation. And it is true in one regard. We must be baptized into Christ. But that is the work of the Spirit. When that happens, we should be baptized in water to reflect our being baptized into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This is the spiritual reality reflected in water baptism.

 

[tylerbones1313]

I agree the cross opened salvation to all. But God hasn't sought out all. If He had, missionaries wouldn't have been necessary. But they were sent to introduce the gospel to people groups who before that time knew not God. Before that time, these groups were not sought out. Who delivered the gospel to Indians in America? For many hundreds of years they were left without the gospel. This is just one example of many. God isn't always striving with men.

Here is a little more info:

Genesis 6:3:

"And the Lord said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

This verse, spoken before the flood of Noah, highlights a limit to God's patience with the rampant wickedness of humanity at that specific time.


God's Striving: "Strive" here suggests God's Spirit was working within people's hearts to draw them away from sin and towards Himself.
Temporal Limit: The phrase "not always" implies a temporal limit to God's striving against widespread rebellion.
Judgment: This verse foreshadows the coming judgment of the flood, demonstrating God's response to persistent and unrepentant wickedness.


God's Continued Mercy: This statement doesn't mean God completely gives up on humanity. Even in judgment, God extends grace, such as providing time for repentance through Noah.
God's Ongoing Pursuit: Throughout the Bible, God continues to reach out to individuals and nations, offering salvation and calling them to turn from sin.
Important Clarification:

While there's a limit to God's striving against persistent widespread wickedness, it's crucial to remember:

• God's love is everlasting (Psalm 136).
• God never stops desiring for people to repent and return to Him (2 Peter 3:9).
• The Holy Spirit continues to work in the world, convicting of sin and drawing people towards salvation (John 16:8).

 

[Cameron143]

He is capable of doing what the Tax collector did. To do what Abraham Did. To do what Paul did, To do what everyone who has ever come to God and cried out for mercy did.

He is also capable of taking the same knowledge and same conviction, and reject it.

He who believes is not condemned, He who believes is condemned already.

Ye must be born again (regenerated) How does this happen?

4 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus even called out Nicodemus, saying you are a teacher and do not know these things?

As moses lifted the serpent. Those who looked to the serpent in faith died. Those ho rejected died.

In the same token, Jesus is raised up. Thos who look in faith live, those who do not will die..(are already dead really)

He came to die for the world. not judge it, He cam that the world MAY be saved (not that it will be saved)

That in a nutshell is how we are regenerated, born again, Made alive

I understand that is your position. I disagree with your understanding. But I appreciate you sharing it.

 

[Cameron143]

Here is a little more info:

Genesis 6:3:

"And the Lord said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

This verse, spoken before the flood of Noah, highlights a limit to God's patience with the rampant wickedness of humanity at that specific time.


God's Striving: "Strive" here suggests God's Spirit was working within people's hearts to draw them away from sin and towards Himself.
Temporal Limit: The phrase "not always" implies a temporal limit to God's striving against widespread rebellion.
Judgment: This verse foreshadows the coming judgment of the flood, demonstrating God's response to persistent and unrepentant wickedness.


God's Continued Mercy: This statement doesn't mean God completely gives up on humanity. Even in judgment, God extends grace, such as providing time for repentance through Noah.
God's Ongoing Pursuit: Throughout the Bible, God continues to reach out to individuals and nations, offering salvation and calling them to turn from sin.
Important Clarification:

While there's a limit to God's striving against persistent widespread wickedness, it's crucial to remember:

• God's love is everlasting (Psalm 136).
• God never stops desiring for people to repent and return to Him (2 Peter 3:9).
• The Holy Spirit continues to work in the world, convicting of sin and drawing people towards salvation (John 16:8).

All great stuff. Thanks for sharing. I believe there is more than just what you have shared.

 

[Johann]

what is a spiritually dead person capable of? And what is actually true of God compared to what we believe is true of God?

Good questions-


What is a spiritually dead person capable of?
In the context of spiritual death, we can look at Ephesians 2:1 which states, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins." Here, the Greek word for "dead" is "νεκρούς (nekrous)" which signifies a state of being lifeless or separated from God.
The Hebrew word for "dead" often used in the Old Testament is "מֵת (mavet)" which carries a similar connotation of physical and spiritual death.
A spiritually dead person, according to biblical teachings, is incapable of seeking God or understanding spiritual truths on their own (Romans 3:11; 1 Corinthians 2:14).



1) "There is none that understandeth," (ouk estin ho sunion) "There is not (even) the one understanding"; Their understanding is darkened, blinded by the God of this world, Psa_10:4; Eph_4:18; 2Co_4:3-4. They, even the Jews, were said to be foolish, sottish, to have no understanding, no knowledge, Jer_4:22.

2) "There is none that seeketh after God," (ouk estin ho ekzeton ton theon) "There is (exists) not (even) one seeking God," Psa_53:1-2; Isa_53:6. "All we like sheep have gone astray." None by nature seeks God for his own good, his soul's chief need, except God takes the initiative to seek and convict him as he did Adam and Eve in the garden, Gen_3:8-11; Isa_9:13; Jer_5:3; Isa_55:6-7; Joh_6:44; Joh_16:7-11.

Your closing statement is a good example. What does it mean to have ears to hear? Is this an alertness on our part? Or is it a supernatural imparting?

To be honest with you-I don't hold to what Calvin and most Reformers are teaching-no offense-and no, the "alertness" is not on our part but being "quickened" by the effectual call of YHVH.
I was reborn-by knowing I need Christ Jesus, does it mean I was regenerated BEFORE believing? Can't rightly say-

HEAR THE GOSPEL (see also knowledge, teach)::John 6:44,45; 8:31,32; Matthew 13:23; Romans 1:16; 10:13,14,17; Mark 16:15,16; Acts 8:26,29,35; 9:6; 11:14; 18:8; Luke 6:46-49; 11:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Revelation 3:20::

KNOWING GOD::John 17:3; 10:14,27; 14:23; Philippians 3:8,10; Jeremiah 9:23,24; 24:7; Daniel 11:32; Hosea 5:4; 6:6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 8:3; Galatians 4:9; 1 Timothy 4:5; Titus 1:16; 2 Peter 1:2,3; 1 John 2:14; 3:1; 4:6,7,8; 5:20::

TEACHING (see also hearing the gospel)::James 3:1; Hebrews 5:12; Colossians 3:16; 2 Timothy 2:2; Romans 2:21; 1 Corinthians 11:14; Titus 2:3; compare Acts 13:1; Ephesians 4:11,12:

HEAR THE GOSPEL (see also knowledge, teach)::John 6:44,45; 8:31,32; Matthew 13:23; Romans 1:16; 10:13,14,17; Mark 16:15,16; Acts 8:26,29,35; 9:6; 11:14; 18:8; Luke 6:46-49; 11:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Revelation 3:20::

However Scripture is full of Subjuntional Clauses-

General Passages about Individual Responsibility
Ezekiel 18:20 – The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. So, a father and son are each responsible for his own wickedness or righteousness. (1 John 3:4)

Matthew 7:21-23 (24-27) – For everyone (individual), the one who enters the kingdom is determined by who does God’s will. Whether or not a person’s spiritual house stands or falls is determined by who hears and does (or does not do) what Jesus teaches. This is true for “whoever” (verse 24) or “everyone” (verse 26).

Acts 10:35 – In every nation whoever (individual) fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. This is true for everyone in every nation. There is no partiality (verse 34).

James 1:23-25 – If anyone (individual) hears God’s word and does not do it, he is like a man (individual) who observes himself in a mirror but then forgets what he saw. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues doing the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. So the one who is blessed is the individual who continues doing what the word teaches.

This is individual responsibility. Each person is responsible for his own conduct.

(John 14:21-24; 15:5,6; Matt. 16:24,25; 12:30,50; 24:13; Acts 2:21; 1 Tim. 2:9; Heb. 6:11; 1 John 2:4-6; 3:7,10; 2 John 9)

Individual Responsibility for Eternal Destiny
2 Corinthians 5:10 – At judgment each one (individual) will receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, good or bad. Each one being judged will be rewarded according to what he did, not what someone else did. This applies to “all.”

Romans 2:6-10 – God will render to each one according to his deeds (verse 6). Tribulation and anguish on every soul of man who does evil (verse 9), but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good (verse 10).

Galatians 6:7,8 – Whatever a man sows (individual) that he will also reap. He who sows to the flesh will reap corruption. He who sows to the spirit will reap everlasting life. What you personally reap will be determined by how you personally lived.

Note: “Do not be deceived. God is not mocked.” When people think they can shift the responsibility for their service to God to others or can avoid being punished or rewarded for how they live, they are deceived and are attempting to mock God!

(Romans 14:12; Revelation 20:13,15)

Individual Responsibility in the Steps to Salvation
Individual responsibility requires each individual to personally take each of the steps that the gospel says are necessary for salvation.

Hearing the gospel
John 6:44,45 – No one can come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father (by teaching). Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Jesus.

Mark 7:14 – Jesus commanded “everyone of you” to hear and understand His teaching.

Each individual must hear and understand. A person may teach others and help them learn. But no one can learn the gospel for you, and you cannot learn it for anyone else.

(Mark 16:15; Luke 10:16; Acts 3:23)

Faith
Mark 16:15,16 – The gospel should be preached to every creature in the whole world. “He who” (each individual) believes and is baptized will be saved. Each person to be saved must first hear, understand, believe, and be baptized. This applies to “every creature” in the whole world.

John 3:16,36 – Whoever (or “he who” – an individual) believes should have everlasting life. But he who does not believe will receive wrath, not life. The individual who seeks eternal life is the same one who must believe. If he does not believe, he will have wrath. Again, this applies to everyone in the whole world.

Hebrews 11:6 – He who (individual) comes to God must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him. The one who wants to come is the one who must believe. What if he does not believe? Then he cannot possibly please God.

Faith is an individual responsibility. No one can believe for you, and you cannot believe for anyone else.

(Acts 10:43; John 5:24; 11:25,26; Romans 10:9-11; 1:16; 3:26)

Shalom
J.

 

[tylerbones1313]

1) God reveals more truth when we respond rightly to what he’s already revealed.
Before getting overwhelmed with the mysteries, we should keep in mind the fact that the whole Bible is a record of God revealing himself to people! Scripture is replete with references to the reality that God intends for us to seek him (see esp. Acts 17:22-28; also 2 Chronicles 15:1-4; Jeremiah 29:12-13), and he gives us enough information to do so. But he does so without forcing it upon us, because he wants a willing response of faith from people; he doesn’t manipulate them into a relationship against their will.

The reality is that we don’t get the privilege of having more truth until we respond rightly in faith to what God already shows everyone. That would include his glory in creation and his principles in our consciences (Romans 1:18-21). It also includes what Christ has done for us all on the cross — that great and public revelation of God’s love for us — and what’s been recorded in Scripture for all to read. God reveals truth to those who seek and obey, and he hides truth from those who resist and rebel.

We see this principle in Jesus’ ministry. When the Jewish leaders began actively rejecting and resisting Jesus, he began preaching in parables (or riddles) so that only those who were really seeking the truth would find it in what Jesus was teaching. As he would famously say, “Whoever has ears, let them hear” (Matthew 13:9, NIV) — in other words, only those who were actively listening for and seeking the truth would find it.

For every question you’d love for God to answer, ask yourself: Am I obeying what he’s revealed already?

Absolute perfectly spoken. God Bless

My Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God, which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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[Cameron143]

It might just be my idiocentric thinking, but it seems to me that the moment someone becomes positive in their thinking towards God, He will make a way for that person to have the oppertunity for eternal life. Otherwise, from our narrow human viewpoint, God would seem to be unfair.

However, we know that’s not the case. My boiled down version of salvation goes something like this;
The Gospel is spoken, heard, or read by someone who reacts in one of two ways;
1) I hear and understand what you say, but I do not believe it.
2) I hear and understand what you say, and I do truly believe it.

You have in essence boiled salvation to its basest understanding. And correctly so. I doubt few would disagree with you at this point. Most of the disagreement is over the impetus for belief and the capability of the natural man.

 

[Cameron143]

Good questions-


What is a spiritually dead person capable of?
In the context of spiritual death, we can look at Ephesians 2:1 which states, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins." Here, the Greek word for "dead" is "νεκρούς (nekrous)" which signifies a state of being lifeless or separated from God.
The Hebrew word for "dead" often used in the Old Testament is "מֵת (mavet)" which carries a similar connotation of physical and spiritual death.
A spiritually dead person, according to biblical teachings, is incapable of seeking God or understanding spiritual truths on their own (Romans 3:11; 1 Corinthians 2:14).



1) "There is none that understandeth," (ouk estin ho sunion) "There is not (even) the one understanding"; Their understanding is darkened, blinded by the God of this world, Psa_10:4; Eph_4:18; 2Co_4:3-4. They, even the Jews, were said to be foolish, sottish, to have no understanding, no knowledge, Jer_4:22.

2) "There is none that seeketh after God," (ouk estin ho ekzeton ton theon) "There is (exists) not (even) one seeking God," Psa_53:1-2; Isa_53:6. "All we like sheep have gone astray." None by nature seeks God for his own good, his soul's chief need, except God takes the initiative to seek and convict him as he did Adam and Eve in the garden, Gen_3:8-11; Isa_9:13; Jer_5:3; Isa_55:6-7; Joh_6:44; Joh_16:7-11.


To be honest with you-I don't hold to what Calvin and most Reformers are teaching-no offense-and no, the "alertness" is not on our part but being "quickened" by the effectual call of YHVH.
I was reborn-by knowing I need Christ Jesus, does it mean I was regenerated BEFORE believing? Can't rightly say-

HEAR THE GOSPEL (see also knowledge, teach)::John 6:44,45; 8:31,32; Matthew 13:23; Romans 1:16; 10:13,14,17; Mark 16:15,16; Acts 8:26,29,35; 9:6; 11:14; 18:8; Luke 6:46-49; 11:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Revelation 3:20::

KNOWING GOD::John 17:3; 10:14,27; 14:23; Philippians 3:8,10; Jeremiah 9:23,24; 24:7; Daniel 11:32; Hosea 5:4; 6:6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 8:3; Galatians 4:9; 1 Timothy 4:5; Titus 1:16; 2 Peter 1:2,3; 1 John 2:14; 3:1; 4:6,7,8; 5:20::

TEACHING (see also hearing the gospel)::James 3:1; Hebrews 5:12; Colossians 3:16; 2 Timothy 2:2; Romans 2:21; 1 Corinthians 11:14; Titus 2:3; compare Acts 13:1; Ephesians 4:11,12:

HEAR THE GOSPEL (see also knowledge, teach)::John 6:44,45; 8:31,32; Matthew 13:23; Romans 1:16; 10:13,14,17; Mark 16:15,16; Acts 8:26,29,35; 9:6; 11:14; 18:8; Luke 6:46-49; 11:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Revelation 3:20::

However Scripture is full of Subjuntional Clauses-

General Passages about Individual Responsibility
Ezekiel 18:20 – The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. So, a father and son are each responsible for his own wickedness or righteousness. (1 John 3:4)

Matthew 7:21-23 (24-27) – For everyone (individual), the one who enters the kingdom is determined by who does God’s will. Whether or not a person’s spiritual house stands or falls is determined by who hears and does (or does not do) what Jesus teaches. This is true for “whoever” (verse 24) or “everyone” (verse 26).

Acts 10:35 – In every nation whoever (individual) fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. This is true for everyone in every nation. There is no partiality (verse 34).

James 1:23-25 – If anyone (individual) hears God’s word and does not do it, he is like a man (individual) who observes himself in a mirror but then forgets what he saw. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues doing the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. So the one who is blessed is the individual who continues doing what the word teaches.

This is individual responsibility. Each person is responsible for his own conduct.

(John 14:21-24; 15:5,6; Matt. 16:24,25; 12:30,50; 24:13; Acts 2:21; 1 Tim. 2:9; Heb. 6:11; 1 John 2:4-6; 3:7,10; 2 John 9)

Individual Responsibility for Eternal Destiny
2 Corinthians 5:10 – At judgment each one (individual) will receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, good or bad. Each one being judged will be rewarded according to what he did, not what someone else did. This applies to “all.”

Romans 2:6-10 – God will render to each one according to his deeds (verse 6). Tribulation and anguish on every soul of man who does evil (verse 9), but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good (verse 10).

Galatians 6:7,8 – Whatever a man sows (individual) that he will also reap. He who sows to the flesh will reap corruption. He who sows to the spirit will reap everlasting life. What you personally reap will be determined by how you personally lived.

Note: “Do not be deceived. God is not mocked.” When people think they can shift the responsibility for their service to God to others or can avoid being punished or rewarded for how they live, they are deceived and are attempting to mock God!

(Romans 14:12; Revelation 20:13,15)

Individual Responsibility in the Steps to Salvation
Individual responsibility requires each individual to personally take each of the steps that the gospel says are necessary for salvation.

Hearing the gospel
John 6:44,45 – No one can come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father (by teaching). Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Jesus.

Mark 7:14 – Jesus commanded “everyone of you” to hear and understand His teaching.

Each individual must hear and understand. A person may teach others and help them learn. But no one can learn the gospel for you, and you cannot learn it for anyone else.

(Mark 16:15; Luke 10:16; Acts 3:23)

Faith
Mark 16:15,16 – The gospel should be preached to every creature in the whole world. “He who” (each individual) believes and is baptized will be saved. Each person to be saved must first hear, understand, believe, and be baptized. This applies to “every creature” in the whole world.

John 3:16,36 – Whoever (or “he who” – an individual) believes should have everlasting life. But he who does not believe will receive wrath, not life. The individual who seeks eternal life is the same one who must believe. If he does not believe, he will have wrath. Again, this applies to everyone in the whole world.

Hebrews 11:6 – He who (individual) comes to God must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him. The one who wants to come is the one who must believe. What if he does not believe? Then he cannot possibly please God.

Faith is an individual responsibility. No one can believe for you, and you cannot believe for anyone else.

(Acts 10:43; John 5:24; 11:25,26; Romans 10:9-11; 1:16; 3:26)

Shalom
J.

Again all good stuff. How one understands the outworking of these things will determine who they believe God to be and what His ways consist in.

 

[Johann]

Again all good stuff. How one understands the outworking of these things will determine who they believe God to be and what His ways consist in.

Suffice to say-

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.



In the days of the Pharaohs, the royal cartouche was impressed upon each brick that was placed in buildings raised by royal authority. The structure was thus known to have been erected by a certain Pharaoh. Here we have the royal cartouche, of the King of Kings set upon the foundation of the great palace of the Church.
-Charles Spurgeon

3) "The Lord knoweth them that are his" (egno kurios tous ontas autou) "The Lord knew (knoweth) those being of him, his own," sealed by His spirit. His sheep are known and preserved by day and night as well as His church, Num_16:5; Joh_10:14; Joh_10:27; Eph_1:13; Mat_16:18.

4) "And let everyone that nameth the name of Christ" (kai pas ho onomazon to noma kuriou) "And let everyone naming the name of the Lord (everyone claiming to be a Christian);" let him live a separated life, from worldliness, 1Jn_2:15-17; 1Pe_4:15-16.

5) "Depart from iniquity" (aposteto apo adikias) "Let each stand away, stand off, or be separated from unrighteous conduct or iniquity," Gal_5:25; 1Th_5:22.

Nevertheless (μέντοι)
Mostly in John. oP. Only here in Pastorals.
The foundation of God standeth sure (ὁ στερεὸς θεμέλιος τοῦ θεοῦ ἕστηκεν)

Wrong. Στερεὸς sure is attributive, not predicative. Rend. the firm foundation of God standeth. The phrase foundation of God, N.T.o. Θεμέλιος foundation is an adjective, and λίθος stone is to be supplied. It is not to be taken by metonymy for οἰκία house (2Ti_2:20), but must be interpreted consistently with it, and, in a loose way, represents or foreshadows it. So we speak of an endowed institution as a foundation. By “the sure foundation of God” is meant the church, which is “the pillar and stay of the truth” (1Ti_3:15), by means of which the truth of God is to withstand the assaults of error. The church has its being in the contents of “the sound teaching” (1Ti_1:10), which is “according to godliness” (1Ti_6:3), and which is deposited in it. “The mystery of godliness “ is intrusted to it (1Ti_3:16). Its servants possess “the mystery of the faith” (1Ti_3:9).

In 1Co_3:11, Christ is represented as “ the chief corner-stone.” In Eph_2:20, the church is built “upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,” with Christ as the corner-stone, and grows into a “holy temple (ναὸν) in the Lord.” Here, the church itself is the foundation, and the building is conceived as a great dwelling-house. While the conception of the church here does not contradict that of Paul, the difference is apparent between it and the conception in Ephesians, where the church is the seat of the indwelling and energy of the Holy Spirit. Comp. 1Co_3:16,1Co_3:17. Στερεός firm only here, Heb_5:12, Heb_5:14, and 1Pe_5:9 (note). Ἕστηκεν standeth, in contrast with overthrow (2Ti_2:18).

Seal (σφραγῖδα)
Mostly in Revelation. Only here in Pastorals. In Paul, Rom_4:11; 1Co_9:2. Used here rather in the sense of inscription or motto. Comp. Deu_6:9; Deu_11:20; Rev_21:14. There are two inscriptions on the foundation stone, the one guaranteeing the security, the other the purity, of the church. The two go together. The purity of the church is indispensable to its security.
The Lord knoweth them that are his (ἔγνω κύριος τοὺς ὄντας αὐτοῦ)
The first inscription: God knows his own. Comp. Num_16:5; 1Co_13:12. For ἔγνω knoweth, see on Gal_4:9. Them that are his, his ἐκλεκτοὶ chosen; see 2Ti_2:10; Tit_1:1; Rom_8:33; Col_3:12; 1Pe_2:9 : Rev_17:14. Not, however, in any hard, predestinarian sense. Comp. Joh_10:14; Mat_7:23; Luk_13:25, Luk_13:27.
VWS

Shalom brother.
J.

 

[Johann]

Absolute perfectly spoken. God Bless

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Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God, which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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Still learning brother-I don't for one moment claim to know it all-love your signature.
J.

 

[Johann]

God Has Decreed Conditions of Salvation
which All Men Can Meet.
Calvinism says there is nothing in man that acts as a condition that moves God to choose any certain man to save him. Man is "altogether passive." However, notice the following conditions that the Bible lists as necessary for salvation, and note further that the Bible says everyone can meet these conditions.

A. Men Must Believe in Christ.
Mark 16:15,16 - The gospel is for the whole world. Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved.

John 3:14-16 - Jesus died for the whole world, and whosoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

The Scriptures clearly teach that faith is a condition to salvation, and anyone in the world may meet that condition.

B. Men Must Repent of Sin.
Acts 17:30,31 - God commands all men everywhere to repent. This refers to all the people who will be judged by Jesus, which means everyone in the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 - God does not want any to perish but all to repent.

Note that all who will be judged must repent (Acts 17:30,31). But those who need to repent are the ones God does not want to see perish. Hence, God does not want anyone in the world to perish. He wants them all to repent.

The Scriptures clearly teach that repentance is a condition of salvation, and everyone on earth must meet that condition.

C. Men Must Confess Christ and Be Baptized.
Matthew 10:32 - Whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

Mark 16:16 - The message preached to everyone in the world is that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

Acts 2:38,39 - The message to all, whoever God calls by the gospel,. is that everyone must repent and be baptized for remission of sins.

Summary
Romans 10:13,14,17 - Whoever calls on the Lord will be saved, but to call one must believe, and to believe one must hear the gospel. The gospel is to be preached to all, and of those who hear it, whoever calls on the Lord will be saved.

The Scriptures clearly teach that salvation is conditional, and that every person is able to meet those conditions.

Calvinists respond to these points by saying that the only people who can truly meet these conditions are the people whom the Holy Spirit unconditionally chose and empowered to do so. But again, this turns the preaching of these conditions to all people a farce. If salvation is not conditional, why did God state conditions? If not everyone can meet the conditions, why did God insist that they be preached to everyone?

The above passages clearly teach that everyone can obey the conditions, but Calvinism flatly contradicts this and denies that everyone can obey.

III. God Grants to Each Person the Power to Accept or Reject Salvation.
If as Calvinism teaches, no conditions man can meet will affect whether or not God saves him, then man has absolutely no choice regarding his salvation. If God chooses the man, he will be saved regardless of the mans' choice. If God does not choose the man, he will be lost regardless of his choice. Hence, man's choice is irrelevant to his salvation.

However, the Bible teaches man does have a choice in whether or not He will please God and be saved.

A. Each Person Is Able to Choose Whether or not He Will Meet the Conditions of Salvation.
Consider the following passages. Why would God say these things if people have no power to choose whether or not to meet the conditions necessary to be pleasing to Him?

Deuteronomy 30:15-19 - God promised blessings to Israel if they would obey Him (28:1-14) and curses if they would disobey Him (28:15-68) [cf. chap. 29,30]. Then He urged them to choose life.

Joshua 24:15 - Likewise, Joshua exhorted Israel to choose what god they would serve. [Cf. Exodus 32:26; 1 Kings 18:21]

Hebrews 11:24,25 - Moses refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, but chose to share ill treatment with God's people, rather than to enjoy sin. [Luke 10:42]

Isaiah 1:18-20 - God reasons with man, He does not compel them against their will. If men were willing to be obedient, God would bless them. If they refused and rebelled, He would punish them.

Matthew 23:37 - Jesus wanted to gather Jerusalem under His wings, but they were not willing! Note: Jesus preferred one choice, but the people rejected it because it was not according to their choice.

Clearly God does not choose men unconditionally and then compel men to accept His choice. He wants them all saved and invites them to accept His will, but He allows them to choose how they will respond to His invitation.

Matthew 13:14,15 - Certain people would not turn ("be converted" - KJV) and be (spiritually) healed by Jesus, because they closed their eyes and did not accept His teachings. Clearly Jesus was willing to heal these people if they were converted, but they resisted His teaching by their own choice.

Revelation 22:17 - Whosoever will(KJV) may freely take of the water of life. It is a matter of man's will, and each person may determine his own will.

B. Each Person Has a Role in Determining His Own Destiny.
According to Calvinism, there is nothing in man's conduct or choice that influences one way or another whether or not God will save that person. Hence, nothing a man does will in any way affect his salvation. Yet note these passages that show that what man does definitely will affect His eternal destiny.

1 Peter 1:22 - You have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth.

Romans 6:13,16-18 - Present yourself to God and your members as instruments of righteousness. To whom you present yourself as a servant to obey, that is your master - either sin or obedience. They were freed from sin because they became obedient to the teaching delivered to them.

2 Corinthians 8:5 - The Macedonians gavetheir own selves to the Lord.

Philippians 2:12 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Timothy 4:16 - Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine … for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Acts 2:40 - Be saved (save yourselves - KJV) from this perverse generation.

2 Corinthians 5:20 - God was pleading with men, through His ambassadors, to BE reconciled to God. Clearly God wants men to come to Him. But He does not compel, He pleads. Men must then take the step that determines the final outcome.

Based on these Scriptures, how can it be concluded that man is "totally passive" in salvation? How can it be that taught that nothing in man is a condition that influences whether or not God chooses to save him?

Clearly all these passages show that man does have the power to choose and that what we do will determine whether or not God chooses to give us eternal life.

J.

 

[Cameron143]

How is it that the Christian can do nothing apart from Christ and the natural man can do so much without Him?

 

[Sipsey]

You have in essence boiled salvation to its basest understanding. And correctly so. I doubt few would disagree with you at this point. Most of the disagreement is over the impetus for belief and the capability of the natural man.

That is a worthy endeavor, but often comes down to splitting hairs, then sub-splitting those. A simple evangelist needs only speak simple words that lead to life. After that, friends, congregations, teachers, pastors, and even angels, lead one into maturity.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How is it that the Christian can do nothing apart from Christ and the natural man can do so much without Him?

Who said the natural man does anything without him?

 

[Cameron143]

Who said the natural man does anything without him?

Everyone who says they believe independently of God.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

And once again where back to John Calvin, one person in history determining how we should view predestination


Fantastic 😂

 

[Johann]

And once again where back to John Calvin, one person in history determining how we should view predestination


Fantastic 😂

Can't dismiss Calvin with impunity-


John Calvin, the influential French Reformer and theologian, wrote numerous works during his lifetime. Some of the notable books authored by John Calvin include:
Institutes of the Christian Religion: Calvin's magnum opus, where he presents his theological views in a systematic and comprehensive manner.
Commentaries on Various Books of the Bible: Calvin produced commentaries on most books of the Bible, providing valuable insights into Scripture. Some of these include:
Commentaries on the Book of Genesis
Commentaries on the Book of Psalms
Commentaries on the Book of Isaiah
Commentaries on the Book of Jeremiah
Commentaries on the Book of Ezekiel
Commentaries on the Gospel according to John
Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, Philemon)
Letters: Calvin wrote over 1,300 letters covering a wide range of topics, reflecting his pastoral care and engagement with various issues.
Other Works: Calvin also authored theological treatises, sermons, and tracts that contributed significantly to Reformed theology and Christian thought.
These works by John Calvin have had a lasting impact on Christian theology and continue to be studied and referenced by scholars and believers around the world.

J.

 

[Johann]

Can't dismiss Calvin with impunity-


John Calvin, the influential French Reformer and theologian, wrote numerous works during his lifetime. Some of the notable books authored by John Calvin include:
Institutes of the Christian Religion: Calvin's magnum opus, where he presents his theological views in a systematic and comprehensive manner.
Commentaries on Various Books of the Bible: Calvin produced commentaries on most books of the Bible, providing valuable insights into Scripture. Some of these include:
Commentaries on the Book of Genesis
Commentaries on the Book of Psalms
Commentaries on the Book of Isaiah
Commentaries on the Book of Jeremiah
Commentaries on the Book of Ezekiel
Commentaries on the Gospel according to John
Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, Philemon)
Letters: Calvin wrote over 1,300 letters covering a wide range of topics, reflecting his pastoral care and engagement with various issues.
Other Works: Calvin also authored theological treatises, sermons, and tracts that contributed significantly to Reformed theology and Christian thought.
These works by John Calvin have had a lasting impact on Christian theology and continue to be studied and referenced by scholars and believers around the world.

J.

Can people seek for God and find Him and His will for our lives? What about people in Africa and other places where the gospel is little known? What must we do to seek for God? What about the attitude of our hearts? Must we believe in God and study the Bible? How important is obedience?
Introduction:
Lassie Come Home is a classic story about a dog who becomes lost; but because of her devotion to a boy, she overcomes many obstacles to return home. Many books and movies have been based on similar themes. The Bible is also a story about searching for things that are lost.

Scripture states that God seeks lost souls to come to Him.
Luke 15:3-6 – Jesus is like a shepherd seeking a lost sheep. He finds it and returns rejoicing.

Revelation 3:20 – Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

God seeks men by providing the means for us to be saved from sin. Then He sends His word to invite all men to come to Him for forgiveness.

Scripture also teaches the importance of people seeking for God.
Some people think that there is little or nothing people can do to find God and His will.

Some teach unconditional election or predestination meaning that God chooses whomever He wants to save, then He brings them to salvation regardless of their will or choice. So, either God finds you or you will simply be lost. But there is nothing you can do to find God.

Other people wonder about people where the gospel is little known. “How can people in dark Africa learn the truth and be saved?” Is God fair to condemn those who never heard the gospel?

Some members of the church wonder how they can be sure they have found the truth.

Some seem to think that whether or not we learn the truth is just a matter of chance: a roll of the dice. Some people are fortunate and happen across the truth, but others are not.

In this study, let us consider what the Bible says about seeking God and His will.

What Should We Seek?
We Should Seek to Know God’s Will.
1 Chronicles 28:8,9 – Solomon was instructed to carefully seek out God’s commands. If he would seek God, God would be found by him.

Psalm 119:10,11,45 – The psalmist sought God, seeking His precepts, that he might not sin against Him. So, seeking God includes seeking to know His will so we can obey it.

God has made His will known in the Scriptures. They provide us to every good work (2 Timothy 3:16,17). God wants this message taught to everyone (Mark 16:15,16; 1 Timothy 2:4).

So, we can know the truth if we are willing to seek it by studying and learning the Scriptures. People all over the world can find God’s will, but they must be willing to seek it.

But seeking God involves more than this.

(Matthew 5:6; Proverbs 2:1-6)

We Should Seek to Be Right with God.
We seek to know God’s will so we might obey it and be right before God.

Deuteronomy 4:29 – If Israel disobeyed God, He would send them into captivity, but from there they would seek God and find Him. So, sin results in losing fellowship with God, but seeking Him can restore fellowship.

Matthew 6:33 – Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Note the word “seek.” We must seek to be right with God as members of His kingdom.

The Scriptures say that sinners are lost in sin: they are alienated from God. They must seek God so they can learn how to be forgiven and restore their fellowship with God.

This ought to challenge those who believe no one can seek God. It should also challenge those who wonder about people who live where the gospel is hard to find. God requires those people to seek Him. Then they can have the right relationship.

(2 Chronicles 15:2,12-15; 17:3,4; Matthew 5:6; Acts 17:22-27,30,31)