Not By Works

[TruthTalk]

English was spoken since the tower of Babel and God confounding the languages.....wow!

Dcon's statement about the english language was a tongue in cheek joke, everybody knows that the english language goes back to the days of Noah...

 

[Endoscopy]

Dcon's statement about the english language was a tongue in cheek joke, everybody knows that the english language goes back to the days of Noah...

You pervert the facts. It goes back to Adam.

 

[benhur]

So do you forgive those that you feel have sinned against you straight away?

No hard feelings and all that? Straight away.

If I have been wronged that cause pain or anquish, then I have a hard time forgiving 'straight away', but in a reasonable amount of time, I do forgive.

I know that I sin against God enough that I need to know that Jesus's promise is true, that if I forgive, the Father will also forgive me. I need that assurance, therefore I forgive. Besides it makes for a better world, and my conscience is clear and my life is better for it.

 

[benhur]

I sometimes think and often pray

Jesus if I could get 1% of you then how different would I be?
If I could just love as you do, be as secure as you were here on earth, them I know I can make a difference.

That is my heart's desire, that is my calling.

That's all our hearts desire on here.

That is a good desire, and I suspect you are right that all on the forum have that same kind of desire.

 

[dcontroversal]

Please show us the scripture that says dead faith can save.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21



Not the works of the law, not works that earn, but the work or action of obedience.

The obedience of faith.

We receive faith by hearing God.

However if if we do not do, what God says then our faith is dead.


Abraham received faith when commanded by God to sacrifice Issac.

Abraham’s faith was “activated” or “made alive” by he actually obeyed God by sacrificing Issac on the altar, in which his faith produced the intended divine result of justifying Abraham.


So you statement that says “faith alone” justifies is completely false and shows you do not understand the law of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
  

This scripture says the commandment of God for the obedience of faith, not faith alone.



JLB

Please show us the scripture that teaches our works save us.......

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US!

now.....go back a read the cited post with understanding and no blinders on!

 

[benhur]

Sorry, scripture states that the seed is the actual word and not Christians. This throws off you analysis. The statement above in red: Jesus is God, He does not try anything. He either does or He does not.

[FONT=&quot]I will accept your correction. The seed is the word, and the different grounds that the seed falls on are the different kinds of people that exist. But the analogy is the same.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Some people are like a hard pathway. The word falls on them, but satan is there immediately and takes it away and they do not become Christians.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Some people are like stoney soil. The word falls on them, and they receive the word gladly, and are born again, but the root is not very deep and when there is temptation or persection, they give up their Christian beliefs and therefore lose their salvation[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Some people are like ground that is full of weeds and thorns. The word fall on them, they receive it gladly, and are born again, but by and by, the thorns of temptation and persection begin to choke them and they leave their Christian path and their salvation is lost.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Some people are like rich soil. The word is dropped on them, they receive it gladly, are born again, and continue in their Christian ways, having faith and trust and good works that produce much for the KOG, Their salvation is assured.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for that instruction.[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

Then explain to me why gospel preaching denominations use pouring and sprinkling. Many years ago I did research on this and found 2 possible words that could be the root of the word baptism. One was dying cloth and the other was a variation of washing of feet. One implies immersion while the other implies pouring and sprinkling. I have posted this before. This is an issue where we have to agree to disagree and POLITELY make our point. One poster seems to forget this.

Because they are in error and most if not all teach a watered down false gospel!

 

[dcontroversal]

Dcon's statement about the english language was a tongue in cheek joke, everybody knows that the english language goes back to the days of Noah...

Hilarious.......clap clap clap clap

 

[benhur]

if one can judge on the basis of works, then only if we have perfect knowledge & consider all time, past, present and future.

a person may have few works, and they may be worked at a relatively slow rate. moreover, Jesus Himself teaches that we should do works in secret, in the case of giving, such that our right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. we would have to know all things that God accepts as good works, over all possible opportunities for all such works to come to fruition, including all things done in secret, and we would have to establish that there is not even one single instance possible. we'd have to know all things at all times about a person, even things they never openly express.

who is eternal & omniscient?
that's who i figure can genuinely "suppose" what you suggest supposing.

You are right of course, only God can judge. That is always true, whether I say it or not. God only judges.

 

[benhur]

in a river

Yes, in this case 'where there was much water'. No need for 'much water' if you can sprinkle or pour.

 

[benhur]

Take it up with Jesus, Paul, John the immerser, and or Elijah.......they all used sarcasm, a little heat and numerous adjectives, nouns and pronouns to combat false teachers and false gospels.....

Then continue, unabated.

 

[Endoscopy]

If I have been wronged that cause pain or anquish, then I have a hard time forgiving 'straight away', but in a reasonable amount of time, I do forgive.

I know that I sin against God enough that I need to know that Jesus's promise is true, that if I forgive, the Father will also forgive me. I need that assurance, therefore I forgive. Besides it makes for a better world, and my conscience is clear and my life is better for it.

There are good psychological reasons as well. I learned it the hard way. A man destroyed my adoption of some of my children by helping them run away. He ignored one and she stayed with us. It took a long time to forgive him.

 

[joefizz]

I notice you avoid the question I asked. Keep in mind that baptism mode is outside of the Apostles Creed which places it in the area of agree to disagree. So answer my question about why several gospel preaching denominations use pouring and sprinkling!!

​Explain away please!!

PS: How about cities here in the US near Death Valley. Your geology is extremely flawed!!

Why bother finding so much out about the "lost"? if you "search" for answers concerning them long enough you might end up joining them,granted we ought to fellowship and help them see the way to salvation,"Jesus" but it's not good to keep on seeking justification for the enemy camp,this creed I have researched and it may well have been with "good intentions" but now it has become a sham and the religion alongside it defiled and gradually getting "further from God" every day.

 

[benhur]

you inow what you do when you assume dont you? Well you just made yourself one.

I mention works all the time, to believers who i am helping disciple, in my trachings when i teach when the topic comes up, when we talk about how a christian should walk.

So again, get off your high horse thinking you know it all, you know not much my friend, about me, or about those you apose!



I have no problem with works

i have problems with legalism, and taking works out of context, i have problems with self rightious people trying to shove works down peoples throats saying you better do them or you will lose salvation.

You have been duped like your budies being taught that people who teach grace believe certain things they do not believe, and refuse to get on your inees and admit you have made a mistake believing the nonsense.

Gracers have a tendency to hide behide words like 'legalism', 'self righteous'. These kinds of words have nothing to do with righteous good works for the love of God and man.

I have never heard you preach a sermon, but on this forum you argue with me as if the words 'good works' are the same as 'legalistic works of the law' and like 'self righteous' acts, done in order to earn my way to eternal life. You and I are not that far apart:
I believe that a person must first believe in Jesus and his atonement. They must have trust and faith that Jesus will keep his promises of grace to be upon us, and a rich and vibrant faith is accompanied by good works, naturally, out of love for our Father in heaven and for Jesus and for our fellow men who need our love and service.

Can you say that you believe the same as my last paragraph?

 

[Endoscopy]

Because they are in error and most if not all teach a watered down false gospel!

In other words you are unable to do what the early elders stated. The Apostles Creed defining the definition of what a Christian must believe. Everything else is supposed to be agree to disagree. You seem unable to do that. You seem to put baptism mode on the same level as grace through faith for salvation. Why??

 

[benhur]

You cant prove it is, there is more evidence that it is not baptism than there is that it is.

and your annalisis of the oarable of the sowere is seriously flawed.

If you had proof you would have used it. You don't.

If my parable of the sower is flawed, tell me where?

 

[benhur]

Only one thing wull damn you, unbelief, only one thing will saveyou, faith (true living faith not mere belief)

lack of works has never damed anyone, what caused oack of works has.

again, your to focused on works, and not on the cross, thats why you reject grace,

I do focus on the cross, but I also focus on what Jesus said personally. He personally said that his Father would not forgive those who trespassed against Him, if we do not forgive those that trespass against us.

If the Father does not forgive you of your sins, you can forget eternal life, because no degree of sin remains in the place that God is. Therefore forgive or lose your eternal life, no matter where your focus seems to be.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

If you had proof you would have used it. You don't.

If my parable of the sower is flawed, tell me where?

you reject the whole point of it

______________________

mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root

their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth
____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

again no root... not born again
no enduring faith

trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)
​

never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

we are those who no doubt continue in the faith

1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
not those who fall away into unbelief






(posted this in another thread while back.... it applies here too... we are saved by grace through faith not of works.... when we are born again we are rooted IN Christ... and we are those who were called AND chosen.... not the reprobate... not those who dont believe... not those who believe in a false gospel.... we are saved already and we are those who He will in no wise cast out)


and endo

we arent saved after we produce fruit


or works


fruit is a result of being rooted in Christ

plain and simple

you also reject

vvvv

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(He uses birth as an earthly example to help the lost Nicodemus who believed in works and didnt understand spiritual things to explain something spiritual to him)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(again Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus speaking of two physical births)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid/natural birth and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining to hammer the point in of the two births.... flesh = water Spirit = God)


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.




_______

if you believe water baptism to be a requirement for salvation then you believe a work will add to the sacrifice of Jesus to aid Him in your salvation



water baptism is a physical cerimony to represent something physical


the same way animal sacrifices would not save anyone
(we need the sacrifice of Jesus)
water baptism will not save anyone
(we need the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

 

[joefizz]

In other words you are unable to do what the early elders stated. The Apostles Creed defining the definition of what a Christian must believe. Everything else is supposed to be agree to disagree. You seem unable to do that. You seem to put baptism mode on the same level as grace through faith for salvation. Why??

It was just a mere mutually agreed upon creed years ago that's all,time has passed since then and things have "changed" both the religion tied to the creed and the people who at the time agreed to it but later changed their minds due to religious warfare.

 

[Endoscopy]

you reject the whole point of it

______________________



you also reject

vvvv

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(He uses birth as an earthly example to help the lost Nicodemus who believed in works and didnt understand spiritual things to explain something spiritual to him)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(again Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus speaking of two physical births)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid/natural birth and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining to hammer the point in of the two births.... flesh = water Spirit = God)


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.




_______

if you believe water baptism to be a requirement for salvation then you believe a work will add to the sacrifice of Jesus to aid Him in your salvation



water baptism is a physical cerimony to represent something physical


the same way animal sacrifices would not save anyone
(we need the sacrifice of Jesus)
water baptism will not save anyone
(we need the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

2 pieces of scripture.
We are saved by grace through faith.
Faith without works is dead.

You explain how these 2 scriptures work together.