Not By Works

[NoNameMcgee]

Sadly many people here are still tripping over that stumblingrock.

I stumbled over it myself brother.... praise God for opening my eyes to the truth of His grace and love and forgiveness

 

[benhur]

What's your thoughts on the following?

John 18:8-9


8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

John 6:38-40
38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

Does God promise to save those he has given to Jesus?

Yes or no?

If not

Ecclesiastes 5:4-7
4 When you make a promise to God, don’t delay in following through, for God takes no pleasure in fools. Keep all the promises you make to him. 5 It is better to say nothing than to make a promise and not keep it. 6 Don’t let your mouth make you sin. And don’t defend yourself by telling the Temple messenger that the promise you made was a mistake. That would make God angry, and he might wipe out everything you have achieved.
7 Talk is cheap, like daydreams and other useless activities. Fear God instead.

So in a sense if God cannot keep his promise????

John 18:8-9

8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

There were many disciples of Jesus early on, who followed him and loved him, but when Jesus gave his 'bread of life' sermon, they left him because this was a hard saying that they must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood in order to have eternal life.

Were these disciples given to Jesus by God? Was Judas, the apostle given to Jesus? How many other disciples can we find that gave up on Jesus and left him, right out of the NT?

Yes, God can keep His promises, but men are not puppets of God, and can and did choose to break away from God, which the early history of the church proved to be miserable for the struggling church. Many of these disciples turned away from Peter and the apostles, (who were faithful as long as Jesus was alive) but left the church and started their own churches and confused the early church with much false declarations.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I stumbled over it myself brother.... praise God for opening my eyes to the truth of His grace and love and forgiveness

You and me both, i think many of us did brother. It shows in humility and refusal to boast in self

 

[Endoscopy]

So let me get this straight you are trusting a site to do research which statistically could be in "error" in order to clarify supposed "errors" in the bible?
Yet somehow the bible translations that you could "read for yourself" you do not trust because you don't trust who wrote them and believe them to have errors because of this?

????????
Where did you get this nonsense from??
Questions
Are men fallible or not?
Are men in a group still fallible?
Are men in a group less or more fallible than a single person?

With these questions answered tell me how any translation can be error free. The last question is why translations are done by groups today. To make any error very minor because someone will hopefully correct a bigger error.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There were many disciples of Jesus early on, who followed him and loved him, but when Jesus gave his 'bread of life' sermon, they left him because this was a hard saying that they must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood in order to have eternal life.

Were these disciples given to Jesus by God? Was Judas, the apostle given to Jesus? How many other disciples can we find that gave up on Jesus and left him, right out of the NT?

Yes, God can keep His promises, but men are not puppets of God, and can and did choose to break away from God, which the early history of the church proved to be miserable for the struggling church. Many of these disciples turned away from Peter and the apostles, (who were faithful as long as Jesus was alive) but left the church and started their own churches and confused the early church with much false declarations.

they left because they were looking for a handout, and were not seeking what they needed, and jesus said, they do not see bcause they do not believe.

look at peter who stayed, and why? Peter said, “where are we to go, you have the words of eternal life) he may not of understood it, but he knew christ was the one, and he believd.

 

[BillG]

So when the bible says that Jesus tells us we must forgive all men their trespasses against us, then God will forgive all your trespasses against Him, we do that without question, right?

So do you forgive those that you feel have sinned against you straight away?

No hard feelings and all that? Straight away.

 

[BillG]

There were many disciples of Jesus early on, who followed him and loved him, but when Jesus gave his 'bread of life' sermon, they left him because this was a hard saying that they must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood in order to have eternal life.

Were these disciples given to Jesus by God? Was Judas, the apostle given to Jesus? How many other disciples can we find that gave up on Jesus and left him, right out of the NT?

Yes, God can keep His promises, but men are not puppets of God, and can and did choose to break away from God, which the early history of the church proved to be miserable for the struggling church. Many of these disciples turned away from Peter and the apostles, (who were faithful as long as Jesus was alive) but left the church and started their own churches and confused the early church with much false declarations.

What did Jesus say about Judas?
Disciple or not.
Son of God or not?

A disciple is a follower, one who want to learn and be like teacher.

If God cannot keep his promises is he then not a liar, is not Jesus a liar?

"Yes God can keep his promises". Sorry mate that is so so wrong.

GOD KEEPS HIS PROMISES.

If not then he is not God and he is a liar

Those who left Jesus were not disciples.

They were just looking for food or a Messahia who would bring Rome to its knees.

Just like Judas

 

[BillG]

I like how paul put it, when we see him we will be like him because we will see him for who he is, Pure love

we can just glimmer at his love in this lifetime, hope to grow and understand it, and continue to run that race and be like him,

but we will not b exacly like him till we see him.l so keep focused on hm, not self, because you have not made it yet.

I sometimes think and often pray

Jesus if I could get 1% of you then how different would I be?
If I could just love as you do, be as secure as you were here on earth, them I know I can make a difference.

That is my heart's desire, that is my calling.

That's all our hearts desire on here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I sometimes think and often pray

Jesus if I could get 1% of you then how different would I be?
If I could just love as you do, be as secure as you were here on earth, them I know I can make a difference.

That is my heart's desire, that is my calling.

That's all our hearts desire on here.

It not it certainly should be, amen my friend.

 

[joefizz]

Do all Bibles not say 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' and 'whoever puts their trust in Him will not be put to shame' ?

Depends on the bible there are some "wise guys" that have "phony bibles" but "real bibles" you are absolutely correct about!

 

[VCO]

You just reminded me of a class at a friend's church that talked about the difference between Greek and English verbs. That Greek present tense starts and continues forever. Really meaning love forever. This kind of issue gives translators headaches.

Yes, and there are no such verb that Can adequately interpret this ongoing action.

Another one is Aorist Verb Tense. Once such occasion is John 14:15, in which BOTH OF THE NON-ENGLISH Verb Tenses, occur in one VERSE.

John 14:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.


The ye love is in the Present, implying an ongoing striving to LOVE HIM, with by action, or obedience. So it is how we act differently AFTER we are SAVED.

BUT, the keep is in the Aorist Tense, and not the Present Tense as I thought, and even though they are wrong, they just interpret as English Past Tense. Then here is how the Blue Letter Bible explains it:

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.

Now does that not seem insufficient? I am not a Greek Scholar, but I know how to use the Blue Letter Bible. So it would seem, that it is so difficult to correctly translate, that they just gave up and said it probably does not matter any how, and settled on just to translate it as ENGLISH Past Tense. I suspect that is a completed action, that becomes a permanent life style; but I don't really know.

There is yet another third Primary Verb Tense, but I cannot remember it name. The Greeks have 6 Primary Greek Tenses, WHILE WE only have 3 in English. Just for example: benhur - I suspect that he wants to believe HIS KJV is the ONLY inspired Translation in English language. If that is what he believes, HOW do you explain that the English Language, has 3 missing verb tenses, THEREFORE, it has to have some minor errors within the language itself? I have heard that ENGLISH because of the missing Verbs, is a POOR language at best, to try to translate the Bible into.

 

[joefizz]

Depends on the bible there are some "wise guys" that have "phony bibles" but "real bibles" you are absolutely correct about!

A few examples of "phony bible" would be any claimed bible leaving out,God,Jesus,the Holy spirit,or the death,burial ,resurrection,and ascension of Jesus Christ.

 

[Magenta]

That will be an interesting day, don't you think?

Yes. Until then, we will not be like Jesus no matter how
hard we try. We hope for what we do not yet have

 

[tourist]

I sometimes think and often pray

Jesus if I could get 1% of you then how different would I be?
If I could just love as you do, be as secure as you were here on earth, them I know I can make a difference.

That is my heart's desire, that is my calling.

That's all our hearts desire on here.

That's my desire as well Bill.

 

[Endoscopy]

Yes, and there are no such verb that Can adequately interpret this ongoing action.

Another one is Aorist Verb Tense. Once such occasion is John 14:15, in which BOTH OF THE NON-ENGLISH Verb Tenses, occur in one VERSE.

John 14:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.


The ye love is in the Present, implying an ongoing striving to LOVE HIM, with by action, or obedience. So it is how we act differently AFTER we are SAVED.

BUT, the keep is in the Aorist Tense, and not the Present Tense as I thought, and even though they are wrong, they just interpret as English Past Tense. Then here is how the Blue Letter Bible explains it:

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.

Now does that not seem insufficient? I am not a Greek Scholar, but I know how to use the Blue Letter Bible. So it would seem, that it is so difficult to correctly translate, that they just gave up and said it probably does not matter any how, and settled on just to translate it as ENGLISH Past Tense. I suspect that is a completed action, that becomes a permanent life style; but I don't really know.

There is yet another third Primary Verb Tense, but I cannot remember it name. The Greeks have 6 Primary Greek Tenses, WHILE WE only have 3 in English. Just for example: benhur - I suspect that he wants to believe HIS KJV is the ONLY inspired Translation in English language. If that is what he believes, HOW do you explain that the English Language, has 3 missing verb tenses, THEREFORE, it has to have some minor errors within the language itself? I have heard that ENGLISH because of the missing Verbs, is a POOR language at best, to try to translate the Bible into.

One of the biggest problems with English is how it developed. Originally there were the Celts. Then in came the Romans bringing Latin. Later the Saxons came bringing old German. And last but not least the Angles came bringing their version of French. This is why we have rules, exceptions to the rules, and exceptions to the exceptions, ad nauseum.

 

[star]

I trust the word of God because it says it is the word of God. I cannot speak Hebrew, Arabic, nor any other language of the time of its conception. I trust God and His Holy Spirit to lead me in reading the Word of God and to discern what it says to me.

People trying to analyze the Word of God to the inth degree and to push the idea that one must understand the above dialect in order to "understand" the Word of God really bug me sometimes.

 

[Deade]

Your analysis of the parable of the sower is not correct. Those seed thrown on stony ground or into thorny patches are those Christians who heard the word and accepted and were born again and started with great faith, but as the tempest broke over them and persecution and temptations battered them, they finally gave up on Jesus and went back to the world. What they once regarded highly, they gave away, and lost. Jesus will try his hardest to bring them back, but if they do not hear his promptings they will lose their salvation.

That was the point of the parable. Some will not receive because satan will act quickly. Others will receive, be born again, but will give it up, and lose everything they had. Others will receive, be born again, and will produce.

Sorry, scripture states that the seed is the actual word and not Christians. This throws off you analysis. The statement above in red: Jesus is God, He does not try anything. He either does or He does not.

 

[posthuman]

So you would say if someone claims to have faith, but has no evidential works, then we can suppose that that person has a dead faith? IOW they were never saved in the first place? Right?

if one can judge on the basis of works, then only if we have perfect knowledge & consider all time, past, present and future.

a person may have few works, and they may be worked at a relatively slow rate. moreover, Jesus Himself teaches that we should do works in secret, in the case of giving, such that our right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. we would have to know all things that God accepts as good works, over all possible opportunities for all such works to come to fruition, including all things done in secret, and we would have to establish that there is not even one single instance possible. we'd have to know all things at all times about a person, even things they never openly express.

who is eternal & omniscient?
that's who i figure can genuinely "suppose" what you suggest supposing.

 

[benhur]

Who is downgrading works? Other than works have no basis on WHY a person is saved.

The problem is those who puff up works, not those who downgrade.

If Christians like me never mentioned the need for good works, you would never use the words, never. You are a gracer that believes that Jesus has done everything necessary for salvation. The end. No use for the thought of good works.

If is only because we bring up the idea of good works that you have to somehow come to grips with how does good works work into the whole equation. So you come up with out of love of God you do good works. But then you qualify that by saying, but good works does not save but only accompanies faith. Faith is the most important thing to remember, good works is almost a hiss and a by-word.

 

[benhur]

Your analysis of my analysis isn't correct.... just like when you were wrong when you thought born of flesh = water baptism.....( not childbirth which is actually what being born of flesh means)

You cannot prove to me that "born of water" (not flesh) is not "water baptism" by scripture.

My analysis of the parable of the sower is as sound as yours.