N
Nalu
Guest
So, you claim no affiliation with any group.
You are self taught and self styled. You teach the gospel according to you.
jesus is not God
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So, you claim no affiliation with any group.
You are self taught and self styled. You teach the gospel according to you.
A
AnandaHya
Guest
it doesn't really count when your organization has a "translation" project that warps God's word into men's doctrine.
Spirit & Truth Fellowship International :: Bible translation, Revised English Version (REV)
cults love rewriting the Bible to fit their theology.
Ironic their source texts isn't in the Hebrew or Greek but earlier ENGLISH text. hmmm...
This is certainly no coincidence. To be fair tho, some fundies treat the KJV as it was the original text. So this thingy is not only found among arians.
now lets review the whole chapter please.
1. Thomas didnt want to believe that Jesus has been risen from the death, even when Jesus before he died had told them that he would arise after 3 days, this much faith did Thomas had,
proof?
2. Thomas said : But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” john 20:24
Jesus came to him and said
ut your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” john 20:26and Thomas wa shocked.
after we see something marvelous many people say my God, when 9 11 happend many people said My God .
but it doesnt mather the important thing is that it was Thomas (the unbeliever at that time ) saying,and not Jesus.
Jesus did not reward Thomas for his behaviour, because Thomas had to see it to believe it like we have people today.
Jesus said:“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”john 20:29
for you all the apostles were saints and speeking Word of God, but for Jesus they werent and neither for me, they were people like you and me in need of salvation.
please read the whole story in context and not the part you prefer
someone saw a enormous spider and said: my God
look at the situation the spider was enormous, the person was surprised. conclusion: the spider wasnt called God.
do not act foolish to think that Jesus must be God because he said before Abraham, I am.
Because Adam sinned it was necessary for him to reincarnate to make good the evil committed in his first existence.
reincarnation is false?? Elijah was born again and given a new name with a new meaning :John the baptist. true?
God gives people a new name for the task he has given them, examples abram>Abraham, sarai>Sarah, Jacob>Israel, Eliah>John, Adam>Jesus.
The Hebrew word for "Adam" is "man". The title "Son of Man" is a reference to Adam
Jesus referred to himself using the phrase "Adam Kadmon" [Son of Man] to refer to the heavenly apocalyptic figure who is to come.
Son of God: "the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." (Luke 3:38)Jesus: "I believe that you are the Christ, the son of God." (John 11:27
Adam: "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." (Gen. 1:26
Jesus: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature" (Col. 1:14-15)
Adam: "who was a pattern of the coming one [Christ]" (Rom. 5:14)
jesus said to be:".. the ruler of God's creation." (Rev. 3:14)
God said to Adam: Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." (Gen. 1:28
Jesus: "I am the First and the Last." (Rev. 1:17
The first and last Adam: "The first Adam became a living being; the last Adam , a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45)
Jesus is the first and the last. does this say he is God?? the first and last what?
Jesus is the first born Son (made of Man) and the last born Son of God
The term "Bar Nasha" or "Son of Man" refers to the "son of a divine human form," the "Logos
the bible tells us that God has two types of children:
angels: many sons Job 38:7
man : only one human son John 3:16 ( we are al sons and daugther of humans, but
one is directly the son of God)
God: "I am the First and I am the Last." (Isaiah 48:12) the first and last what??
the first God and the last God
Adam: "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'" (Mark 10:6
Jesus: "He was with God in the beginning." (John 1:1-2)
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (Rom. 5:12-21)
do not forget the stubborn angel couldnt make adam disobedient to eat from the tree, thats why he used his wife, and God has cursed that angel therefore
Because Adam sinned it was necessary for him to reincarnate to make good the evil committed in his first existence.
reincarnation is false?? Elijah was born again and given a new name with a new meaning :John the baptist. true?
God gives people a new name for the task he has given them, examples abram>Abraham, sarai>Sarah, Jacob>Israel, Eliah>John, Adam>Jesus.
The Hebrew word for "Adam" is "man". The title "Son of Man" is a reference to Adam
Jesus referred to himself using the phrase "Adam Kadmon" [Son of Man] to refer to the heavenly apocalyptic figure who is to come.
Son of God: "the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." (Luke 3:38)Jesus: "I believe that you are the Christ, the son of God." (John 11:27
Adam: "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." (Gen. 1:26
Jesus: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature" (Col. 1:14-15)
Adam: "who was a pattern of the coming one [Christ]" (Rom. 5:14)
jesus said to be:".. the ruler of God's creation." (Rev. 3:14)
God said to Adam: Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." (Gen. 1:28
Jesus: "I am the First and the Last." (Rev. 1:17
The first and last Adam: "The first Adam became a living being; the last Adam , a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45)
Jesus is the first and the last. does this say he is God?? the first and last what?
Jesus is the first born Son (made of Man) and the last born Son of God
The term "Bar Nasha" or "Son of Man" refers to the "son of a divine human form," the "Logos
the bible tells us that God has two types of children:
angels: many sons Job 38:7
man : only one human son John 3:16 ( we are al sons and daugther of humans, but
one is directly the son of God)
God: "I am the First and I am the Last." (Isaiah 48:12) the first and last what??
the first God and the last God
Adam: "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'" (Mark 10:6
Jesus: "He was with God in the beginning." (John 1:1-2)
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (Rom. 5:12-21)
do not forget the stubborn angel couldnt make adam disobedient to eat from the tree, thats why he used his wife, and God has cursed that angel therefore
KJV translators did their work to fit their theology. There's nothing like adding an entire verse (1 John 5:7) to promote your beliefs. Even many noted trinitarians admit that verse is a forgery.
D
dbj72
Guest
Can you pls tell me where your source info for this quote is because enquiring minds would like to know.
Also can someone tell me what the need for the council was if it is so plain to see. A council which apparently was full of gentile bishops who come from a multi god heritage?
This question is not to provoke so pls do not answer with sarcasm or 1 line scriptures simply because its not the way I like to learn
GOD is a spirit and you must relate to him in spirit. GOD related to man by manefesting himself in a way the human being could understand.
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
(in the beginning was GOD,and GOD was with the word,and GOD was the word) the words in parenthesis are my words.
Im sorry but this is not too trust, for the source of this I do not follow
I dont rely on sources outside the bible
Logos according to wikipedia means word
my mistake
Z
zackabba
Guest
now lets review the whole chapter please.
1. Thomas didnt want to believe that Jesus has been risen from the death, even when Jesus before he died had told them that he would arise after 3 days, this much faith did Thomas had,
proof?
2. Thomas said : But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” john 20:24
Jesus came to him and said
and Thomas wa shocked.
after we see something marvelous many people say my God, when 9 11 happend many people said My God .
but it doesnt mather the important thing is that it was Thomas (the unbeliever at that time ) saying,and not Jesus.
Jesus did not reward Thomas for his behaviour, because Thomas had to see it to believe it like we have people today.
Jesus said:“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”john 20:29
for you all the apostles were saints and speeking Word of God, but for Jesus they werent and neither for me, they were people like you and me in need of salvation.
please read the whole story in context and not the part you prefer
someone saw a enormous spider and said: my God
look at the situation the spider was enormous, the person was surprised. conclusion: the spider wasnt called God.
Then Thomas was a blasphemer and Jesus was wrong not to rebuke him for it.
Next.
B
BlessedOneness
Guest
I haven't read past the first page, so hopefully my reply isn't rehashing things. I went through just that first page and addressed the list of Scripture people compiled as evidence for Jesus being God.
Basically, here's my stance in a nutshell: Jesus is NOT God; rather, He is the Word of God - and that is a big difference, one which I hope you will see if you can bear with me.
John 1:1-14 – What “Word” is John referring to? The Logos, which is to do with mind, thought, rationale (logic), spoken thought (word), expression.
John 1:1 is telling us WHAT the Word was – God, or more accurately those qualities or attributes which are of God. So we're being told that the Word is godly, or divine. It's very clear if you look at the Greek; we are not being told “who” but “what.” In other words, the Word isn't being presented as a distinct divine person from the Father.
John 1:3 – God made all things through His Word – refer to the repetition of “God said” in Gen 1. And before anyone objects that the masculine pronoun must indicate a person distinct from God (the Father), in the Greek there is no hard rule to interpret this as such. The pronouns used could just have well be interpreted as “it,” or “this.” It depends on the context with how the Greek is to be translated.
John 1:10 – Similar thing to 1:3. Both times “by” has been translated from the Greek “di',” which is not so much to do with authorship but “through” or “by means of.” The problem with translating to English is that our “by” has a much larger scope with how we can understand it. God's reason for all of creation was for this very moment in history, when He would send forth His Son. He planned everything to the minutest detail for when Jesus would make His entrance.
John 1:14 – How was the Word made flesh? Firstly, God is love, and as such His expression is love. Quite clearly, Jesus is the expression of God's love. Secondly, God's Word became a man because of the following:
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (Deut 18:18)
Confirmed by Stephen that this is Jesus:
“...Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.” (Acts 7:37)
And, if that's not enough, Jesus said it Himself:
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)
The book of Hebrews expresses this as well:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;” (Heb 1:1-2)
Prophets before Jesus were, in a sense, a Word of God – that's what made them prophets. They bore a message, an expression of God, but they were not the totality of God's expression, THE Word of God.
Titus 2:13 is no proof-text that Jesus is God. There is no reason to interpret the Greek “doxa” from being the noun “glory” into “glorious.” That changes the whole meaning of the sentence. The verse should more accurately be rendered:
“Awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”
Jesus is the glory of His Father:
"For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels" (Matthew 16:27a)
John 10:30 – One in purpose. Jesus executes His Father's orders. He and His Father were all for bringing about our salvation.
John 8:58 – While there is debate on whether Jesus' phrase, “I am,” is in reference to the revelation of God's name given to Moses in Ex 3, it nonetheless is not to be confused with Jesus claiming to be God. Jesus spoke the words of His Father – in other words, His words were not His own! Think of it like Isaiah, or various angels in time past, who spoke on behalf of YHWH. They spoke as if they were YHWH Himself – but, of course, we never confuse them to be YHWH.
John 20:28 – Thomas had in mind TWO persons when He made this exclamation. The Greek makes that crystal clear. He saw a noun, a man, standing in front of him – his Lord. To see this man was to see a verb, God the Father. Thomas finally understood John 14:9-10:
“Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
To see Jesus is to see His Father. Jesus explains this as so because He was speaking and doing the things of His Father. It was His Father who was doing the works. It was His Father who resurrected Jesus. God is invisible, so the only way to see Him is through the effects or actions He does. To see the noun was to see the verb. To see the resurrected man was to see the works of God.
When you can see that, you can quite clearly see that Thomas never thought that Jesus was God.
Matt 1:23 – Immanuel, being “God with us” does not mean the man Jesus is God. God tabernacled in this man and that's how God was with the people back then. Similarly, those who follow Christ also have God tabernacling in them. No on thinks they're God for this reason, though. God's with us, but none of us are God.
Is 9:6 is not intended to describe the Messiah but that of which God was accomplishing through the man. It is in this man, and through this man, that God does these things. Look at other names in Isaiah, such as Shear-jashub (meaning “a remnant shall return”
(Is 7:3), and Maher-shalal-hash-baz (Is 8:3). These weren't names intended to describe the child, but to give a sign of what God was doing.
Also, it was not uncommon for Israeli children to be given names which honoured or described God in some way – for example, Isaac (God laughs), Samuel (God has heard), just to list a couple.
John 10:33 – The Jews considered it blasphemy that Jesus was claiming to be equal with God, not that He claimed to actually be God.
Acts 4:12 – Jesus has been given the name (more to do with authority, really) by God the Father. It is by His authority that we are saved.
Phil 2:5-7 – The “form” of God which Jesus had was not to do with Him being divine by nature. It has been translated from the Greek “morphe,” which has the idea of “status” in mind. Jesus had the status of God, because God had granted Him the authority to enact on His behalf.
1 Tim 3:16 – It is now well-known that it was a “scribal error” to insert “God” into the text. Also, if we keep reading, we would come to the absurd conclusion that God was “justified in the Spirit,” amongst other illogicalities.
Furthermore, “godliness” is a translation from the Greek “eusebias,” which has more to do with reverent piety. “Godliness” is about as close as we can render it in English, but it gives the original Greek a larger scope of meaning than was ever intended.
On another note, this is not the only time that Paul refers to a “mystery.” See 2 Tim 1:8-9:
“Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began”
Now, compare that to Rom 16:25:
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began”
And Eph 1:9-10:
“Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him”
Eph 3:9:
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ”
Simply put, Christ is the fleshly manifestation of God's mystery.
And lastly, even if the verse did include “God,” it still doesn't make Jesus to be God. Jesus made the Father known, so God was indeed manifested, or revealed, in flesh, in the man Jesus Christ.
Heb 1:8-9 – Read the original Old Testament context of the passage. It comes from Ps 45, a psalm which was dedicated to the wedding of David and a princess from Tyre. Here's how it starts out:
“My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.” (Ps 45:1-5)
Quite clearly, the focus is on king David.
Now we get to verses 6-7, but with the typical translation we run into a problem...
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. ”
Is David to be seen as God? No, of course not. Note also that verse 8 speaks of David's garments. So it is highly unlikely that the psalmist went from talking about David in v1-5 to then God in v6, and then back to David in v7-8.
An entirely possible, and more accurate, translation is, “Thy throne, the God,” or to make more sense in English, “Thy throne of God.” David was appointed and anointed as the king of Israel, who sat on the throne of God. Refer to 1 Chron 29:23:
“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.”
Rev 1:8 – No indication if this was Jesus speaking, but in any case refer to the first verse of the book:
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass...” (Rev 1:1a)
Jesus continues to be the Word of His Father. Just because He speaks the revelation doesn't mean that He is personally identifying Himself with that revelation.
Rev 22:13 – Again, Jesus' Words are not His own; don't confuse it.
1 Cor 12:3 – No indication of Jesus being called God here. “Lord” is a title of authority that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus. Refer to Matt 28:18, Acts 2:34-36, Ps 110:1, Acts 17:31 and Phil 2:9.
And Jesus became life-giving Spirit at His resurrection (1 Cor 15:45, 2 Cor 3:17).
John 20:31 – “Son of God” not “God.”
1 John 2:22 – Nothing to do with supposedly denying Christ as God.
1 John 5:1 – We are all begotten of God as well. Refer to John 3:3 – the correct translation is “born/begotten from above,” not “born again.”
Phil 2:11 – Again, “Lord” referring to authority, not divinity.
John 3:16 – Jesus is no longer the only-begotten Son. At the time of His ministry, He was though – until the day of Pentecost changed all that.
John 14:23 – Look at the entire context of this chapter. I believe it is more to do with the rapture, the time when Jesus will take up the church, and He will make His (and His Father's) home our home.
But regardless, if you want to take the verse as referring to the receiving of the Holy Spirit, the nature of the Father is His Holy Spirit, and Jesus takes on the fulness of that nature bodily upon His resurrection, whereby He becomes a life-giving Spirit to all those who believe in Him.
Basically, here's my stance in a nutshell: Jesus is NOT God; rather, He is the Word of God - and that is a big difference, one which I hope you will see if you can bear with me.
John 1:1-14 – What “Word” is John referring to? The Logos, which is to do with mind, thought, rationale (logic), spoken thought (word), expression.
John 1:1 is telling us WHAT the Word was – God, or more accurately those qualities or attributes which are of God. So we're being told that the Word is godly, or divine. It's very clear if you look at the Greek; we are not being told “who” but “what.” In other words, the Word isn't being presented as a distinct divine person from the Father.
John 1:3 – God made all things through His Word – refer to the repetition of “God said” in Gen 1. And before anyone objects that the masculine pronoun must indicate a person distinct from God (the Father), in the Greek there is no hard rule to interpret this as such. The pronouns used could just have well be interpreted as “it,” or “this.” It depends on the context with how the Greek is to be translated.
John 1:10 – Similar thing to 1:3. Both times “by” has been translated from the Greek “di',” which is not so much to do with authorship but “through” or “by means of.” The problem with translating to English is that our “by” has a much larger scope with how we can understand it. God's reason for all of creation was for this very moment in history, when He would send forth His Son. He planned everything to the minutest detail for when Jesus would make His entrance.
John 1:14 – How was the Word made flesh? Firstly, God is love, and as such His expression is love. Quite clearly, Jesus is the expression of God's love. Secondly, God's Word became a man because of the following:
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (Deut 18:18)
Confirmed by Stephen that this is Jesus:
“...Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.” (Acts 7:37)
And, if that's not enough, Jesus said it Himself:
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)
The book of Hebrews expresses this as well:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;” (Heb 1:1-2)
Prophets before Jesus were, in a sense, a Word of God – that's what made them prophets. They bore a message, an expression of God, but they were not the totality of God's expression, THE Word of God.
Titus 2:13 is no proof-text that Jesus is God. There is no reason to interpret the Greek “doxa” from being the noun “glory” into “glorious.” That changes the whole meaning of the sentence. The verse should more accurately be rendered:
“Awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”
Jesus is the glory of His Father:
"For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels" (Matthew 16:27a)
John 10:30 – One in purpose. Jesus executes His Father's orders. He and His Father were all for bringing about our salvation.
John 8:58 – While there is debate on whether Jesus' phrase, “I am,” is in reference to the revelation of God's name given to Moses in Ex 3, it nonetheless is not to be confused with Jesus claiming to be God. Jesus spoke the words of His Father – in other words, His words were not His own! Think of it like Isaiah, or various angels in time past, who spoke on behalf of YHWH. They spoke as if they were YHWH Himself – but, of course, we never confuse them to be YHWH.
John 20:28 – Thomas had in mind TWO persons when He made this exclamation. The Greek makes that crystal clear. He saw a noun, a man, standing in front of him – his Lord. To see this man was to see a verb, God the Father. Thomas finally understood John 14:9-10:
“Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
To see Jesus is to see His Father. Jesus explains this as so because He was speaking and doing the things of His Father. It was His Father who was doing the works. It was His Father who resurrected Jesus. God is invisible, so the only way to see Him is through the effects or actions He does. To see the noun was to see the verb. To see the resurrected man was to see the works of God.
When you can see that, you can quite clearly see that Thomas never thought that Jesus was God.
Matt 1:23 – Immanuel, being “God with us” does not mean the man Jesus is God. God tabernacled in this man and that's how God was with the people back then. Similarly, those who follow Christ also have God tabernacling in them. No on thinks they're God for this reason, though. God's with us, but none of us are God.
Is 9:6 is not intended to describe the Messiah but that of which God was accomplishing through the man. It is in this man, and through this man, that God does these things. Look at other names in Isaiah, such as Shear-jashub (meaning “a remnant shall return”
(Is 7:3), and Maher-shalal-hash-baz (Is 8:3). These weren't names intended to describe the child, but to give a sign of what God was doing.Also, it was not uncommon for Israeli children to be given names which honoured or described God in some way – for example, Isaac (God laughs), Samuel (God has heard), just to list a couple.
John 10:33 – The Jews considered it blasphemy that Jesus was claiming to be equal with God, not that He claimed to actually be God.
Acts 4:12 – Jesus has been given the name (more to do with authority, really) by God the Father. It is by His authority that we are saved.
Phil 2:5-7 – The “form” of God which Jesus had was not to do with Him being divine by nature. It has been translated from the Greek “morphe,” which has the idea of “status” in mind. Jesus had the status of God, because God had granted Him the authority to enact on His behalf.
1 Tim 3:16 – It is now well-known that it was a “scribal error” to insert “God” into the text. Also, if we keep reading, we would come to the absurd conclusion that God was “justified in the Spirit,” amongst other illogicalities.
Furthermore, “godliness” is a translation from the Greek “eusebias,” which has more to do with reverent piety. “Godliness” is about as close as we can render it in English, but it gives the original Greek a larger scope of meaning than was ever intended.
On another note, this is not the only time that Paul refers to a “mystery.” See 2 Tim 1:8-9:
“Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began”
Now, compare that to Rom 16:25:
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began”
And Eph 1:9-10:
“Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him”
Eph 3:9:
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ”
Simply put, Christ is the fleshly manifestation of God's mystery.
And lastly, even if the verse did include “God,” it still doesn't make Jesus to be God. Jesus made the Father known, so God was indeed manifested, or revealed, in flesh, in the man Jesus Christ.
Heb 1:8-9 – Read the original Old Testament context of the passage. It comes from Ps 45, a psalm which was dedicated to the wedding of David and a princess from Tyre. Here's how it starts out:
“My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.” (Ps 45:1-5)
Quite clearly, the focus is on king David.
Now we get to verses 6-7, but with the typical translation we run into a problem...
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. ”
Is David to be seen as God? No, of course not. Note also that verse 8 speaks of David's garments. So it is highly unlikely that the psalmist went from talking about David in v1-5 to then God in v6, and then back to David in v7-8.
An entirely possible, and more accurate, translation is, “Thy throne, the God,” or to make more sense in English, “Thy throne of God.” David was appointed and anointed as the king of Israel, who sat on the throne of God. Refer to 1 Chron 29:23:
“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.”
Rev 1:8 – No indication if this was Jesus speaking, but in any case refer to the first verse of the book:
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass...” (Rev 1:1a)
Jesus continues to be the Word of His Father. Just because He speaks the revelation doesn't mean that He is personally identifying Himself with that revelation.
Rev 22:13 – Again, Jesus' Words are not His own; don't confuse it.
1 Cor 12:3 – No indication of Jesus being called God here. “Lord” is a title of authority that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus. Refer to Matt 28:18, Acts 2:34-36, Ps 110:1, Acts 17:31 and Phil 2:9.
And Jesus became life-giving Spirit at His resurrection (1 Cor 15:45, 2 Cor 3:17).
John 20:31 – “Son of God” not “God.”
1 John 2:22 – Nothing to do with supposedly denying Christ as God.
1 John 5:1 – We are all begotten of God as well. Refer to John 3:3 – the correct translation is “born/begotten from above,” not “born again.”
Phil 2:11 – Again, “Lord” referring to authority, not divinity.
John 3:16 – Jesus is no longer the only-begotten Son. At the time of His ministry, He was though – until the day of Pentecost changed all that.
John 14:23 – Look at the entire context of this chapter. I believe it is more to do with the rapture, the time when Jesus will take up the church, and He will make His (and His Father's) home our home.
But regardless, if you want to take the verse as referring to the receiving of the Holy Spirit, the nature of the Father is His Holy Spirit, and Jesus takes on the fulness of that nature bodily upon His resurrection, whereby He becomes a life-giving Spirit to all those who believe in Him.
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"Jesus was not God"
truthfull,
To be truthful, your topic title - "jesus is not God" - is grammatically wrong to begin with. You should have said, "Jesus was not God". Jesus has a Capital J and "was" - the past tense - should be used since we are talking about events ~2,000 years ago.
There is a Big difference between 'God' and 'god'. Jesus said, "Know ye not that ye are gods?" I do know that I AM a god, but I AM not God.
Y'shua bar Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph) was God incarnate. God in human form is a god and is number 1 among the gods. The soul of thee god has appeared many, many times before Jesus and has appeared many times since.
- Brad Watson, Miami
teacher
http://7seals.yuku.com
truthfull,
To be truthful, your topic title - "jesus is not God" - is grammatically wrong to begin with. You should have said, "Jesus was not God". Jesus has a Capital J and "was" - the past tense - should be used since we are talking about events ~2,000 years ago.
There is a Big difference between 'God' and 'god'. Jesus said, "Know ye not that ye are gods?" I do know that I AM a god, but I AM not God.
Y'shua bar Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph) was God incarnate. God in human form is a god and is number 1 among the gods. The soul of thee god has appeared many, many times before Jesus and has appeared many times since.
- Brad Watson, Miami
teacher
http://7seals.yuku.com
R
rodogg
Guest
Re: "Jesus was not God"
the whole context:
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? john :34
I read in the scripture that the people were hypocrite; for in their law they are calling themself Gods, but when Jesus calls himself the son of God they say it is blasphemy
I dont see : I am a god, but I am not god
im sorry for not have used the capitals in names, my spelling is not so good
the whole context:
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? john :34
I read in the scripture that the people were hypocrite; for in their law they are calling themself Gods, but when Jesus calls himself the son of God they say it is blasphemy
I dont see : I am a god, but I am not god
im sorry for not have used the capitals in names, my spelling is not so good
Re: "Jesus was not God"
Elohim is a broad term when applied to many people. It can mean "powers" or an "ultimate power above all powers" I believe. It doesn't carry the strict connotation of the English "God". And I think it was a term applied to people multiple times in the past. Anyway, I think Jesus is just picking out the flaw in their reasoning. To me he's saying, "You guys accept being called powers, but you condemn me for calling myself a son of a power? That's rather two-faced."
Elohim is a broad term when applied to many people. It can mean "powers" or an "ultimate power above all powers" I believe. It doesn't carry the strict connotation of the English "God". And I think it was a term applied to people multiple times in the past. Anyway, I think Jesus is just picking out the flaw in their reasoning. To me he's saying, "You guys accept being called powers, but you condemn me for calling myself a son of a power? That's rather two-faced."
C
ChildrenofNoah
Guest
I believe the first two posts here kyouken, prophecyman and peter t sum it up.
Pray to Jesus (who you know to be your Lord) and ask him for truth in the matter and then read all the verses supplied by the posts made by the people i just mentioned.
I really hope this helps any confusion!
Pray to Jesus (who you know to be your Lord) and ask him for truth in the matter and then read all the verses supplied by the posts made by the people i just mentioned.
I really hope this helps any confusion!
Z
zackabba
Guest
With the verses cited, Jesus was referring back to Psalm 82, where people ( namely, rulers) are called gods.
Why did this make the Jews angry? Because the rest of the Psalm shows that these "gods" would indeed die - they were not the one true God.
So, when Jesus says "Doesn't the Scriptures say you are gods?" He wasn't saying "Oh, well, I'm a god as well! Can't we all just get along and be gods together?" What He was pointing out was His difference between Him and them - that He truly was the divine Son of God from eternity, who thought it not blasphemy to say that He and the Father were one - not only in purpose, but also in being.
Why did this make the Jews angry? Because the rest of the Psalm shows that these "gods" would indeed die - they were not the one true God.
So, when Jesus says "Doesn't the Scriptures say you are gods?" He wasn't saying "Oh, well, I'm a god as well! Can't we all just get along and be gods together?" What He was pointing out was His difference between Him and them - that He truly was the divine Son of God from eternity, who thought it not blasphemy to say that He and the Father were one - not only in purpose, but also in being.