I am the only person on Earth that believes Genesis 2:17

[walknlight]

I realize OP is banned and can't reply, but the sake of completeness, I think the topic is still worthwhile to address this.

Agreed!
The WHOLE of Genesis 1-4 ,

Just as "bunnies don't lay eggs"
That was no "apple" they ate of......

Suggested to me by a great man of God , it was The Songs of Solomon that helped me understand alot in Genesis,

The Greek is precise. Hebrew is picturesque.

God Bless!

 

[Aerials1978]

I believe the passage as it is stated. Not only was physical death inevitable, there was a spiritual death at that moment that has plagued all humans.

 

[Jocund]

I believe the passage as it is stated

Which one of the four potential Gen 2:17 interpretations do you consider to be "as stated"?

1) Figurative death, figurative day
2) Figurative death, literal day
3) Literal death, figurative day
4) Literal death, literal day

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Gen 2:17 KJV

 

[ewq1938]

Which one of the four potential Gen 2:17 interpretations do you consider to be "as stated"?

1) Figurative death, figurative day
2) Figurative death, literal day
3) Literal death, figurative day
4) Literal death, literal day

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Gen 2:17 KJV

2) Figurative death, literal day

 

[Jocund]

2) Figurative death, literal day

What leads you to that conclusion?

 

[Aerials1978]

Which one of the four potential Gen 2:17 interpretations do you consider to be "as stated"?

1) Figurative death, figurative day
2) Figurative death, literal day
3) Literal death, figurative day
4) Literal death, literal day

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Gen 2:17 KJV

I would have to go with 3

 

[Magenta]

I was wondering the same thing

In the beginning... men lived hundreds and hundreds of years. Like, almost a thousand. But decay
had set in. Death was in the world. And in that day when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit,
the death process began. So I have "heard" it explained: They began dying. They began dying,
and then, hundreds of years later, they died. In dying, they shall die. And so they did.

 

[ewq1938]

What leads you to that conclusion?

The infinitive absolute verb pairing.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When the Hebrew uses this same verb twice in a row one of the words will be spelled slightly different. One will be the infinitive absolute verb and the other is called the conjugated/inflected verb.

They can mean two different things but not both at the same time:

1. "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death. "dying thou shalt die".

OR

2. "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" re-enforcing the fact that he would definitely/surely die the literal day he sinned.

It all depends on if the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last, or vice versa.

In the manuscripts the the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last so the meaning of the verb is "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and NOT "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process.

In order for the verb to mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process it would have to have been the conjugated/inflected verb first and the infinitive absolute verb last but that is not how it appears in the manuscripts. Number 2 is the way the verb paring appears in Gen 2:17.

 

[Gideon300]

No idea where Yokefellow was coming from, but there exists the interpretation that "Adam and Eve died in that day but were resurrected on the same day". The interpretation requires accepting a resurrection event that is not described in the texts, but it is one way to create consistency between a completely literal Gen 2:17 and the rest of scripture.

Just food for thought.

So what does it mean when it says that in Adam, all die, in Christ we are made alive? It also says that we are dead in trespass and sin. Obviously that does not mean physical. Yokefellow's understanding makes no sense. He can believe what he likes, of course. It reminds me of the boy watching a parade of soldiers. His dad is marching with them, but he's out of step. The boy says, "look mum, dad is the only one marching in step!" Now I don't believe in majority rules, otherwise I'd be a catholic. I do believe that the Bible needs to be studied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not according to human logic and reason.

 

[Gideon300]

Good Morning!

My Thought.
1. Consider, a "day" 1000 years, they died in that "day"...no one lived past 1000

2. Removed , back out of the Garden, separation from God. A man without Christ is a "dead man" walking...

God Bless!

So it was morning for 500 years and evening for another 500 years? I find that hard to believe. And if you accept that Adam died spiritually, you have the answer. That position is supported by the New Testament. We are born dead in trespass and sin. Yet we exist for 70 years or so. So obviously death in that sense is not physical. Again, we are crucified with Christ, yet we are not physically nailed to the cross. "You died, and your life is hidden in Christ with God". Physical death is the consequence of spiritual death. Spiritual death is immediate. When we are born again, we receive resurrection life, but that again is spiritual. Our bodies do not change. That comes when we receive our new bodies.

 

[Jocund]

he would definitely/surely die the literal day he sinned.[...]

The infinitive absolute verb pairing.
[...]
2. "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" re-enforcing the fact that he would definitely/surely die the literal day he sinned.
[...]
In the manuscripts the the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last so the meaning of the verb is "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" [...]
.

That seemingly speaks only to the component "מוֹת תָּמוּת thou shalt surely die" and even if we were to establish "emphasis on status" vs "emphasis on transition" I don't see how that would be indicative of the literal or figurative nature of this death, and certainly this would not speak to the literal or figurative nature of "in that day" in the verse.

Would the context of the death still not be beholden to the timeframe? ("In that day"). If that is the case, how do we determine whether "day" refers to a literal 24h or a figurative duration of time?

 

[Jocund]

So what does it mean when it says that in Adam, all die, in Christ we are made alive? It also says that we are dead in trespass and sin. Obviously that does not mean physical.

Referencing Paul's material on the first Adam, etc. is a good approach. We can interpret "death" to be in reference to spiritual death. But, there is nothing that excludes the possibility of interpretting Gen 2:17 as a literal physical death irrespective of Paul's dialogue.

And we could take an extra leap and check to see if Paul's dialogue could also be interpretted as an explicit reference to physical death while symbolically inferring a correlated spiritual death. Paul emphasizes the importance of the literal physical resurrection and the truth that all men are appointed to die once.

With that in mind, we are still left with a puzzle in Gen 2:17, where multiple possible intepretations exist even if our first impression leads us to prefer one interpretation over the others. How should we address differences in interpretation preferences between fellow believers?

needs to be studied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not according to human logic and reason.

Logic and reason are a necessary component to understanding, hence the law of the new covenant is written on heart and mind. The Holy Spirit also works through logic and reason.

Logic and reason in their purest form cannot contradict the truth.

 

[ewq1938]

That seemingly speaks only to the component "מוֹת תָּמוּת thou shalt surely die" and even if we were to establish "emphasis on status" vs "emphasis on transition" I don't see how that would be indicative of the literal or figurative nature of this death, and certainly this would not speak to the literal or figurative nature of "in that day" in the verse.

Because the language used has a specific meaning, that a death happened same day he ate the fruit. Since he remained alive, it was a spiritual death. Hebrew grammar and the verb pairing in the order it appears proves that. Ask a Hebrew scholar. I spent a year researching this topic reading paper after paper from experts in the language. I wanted not only understand it, but be able to explain it to those who have no understanding of Hebrew.

 

[Jocund]

Because the language used has a specific meaning, that a death happened same day he ate the fruit. Since he remained alive, it was a spiritual death. Hebrew grammar and the verb pairing in the order it appears proves that. Ask a Hebrew scholar. I spent a year researching this topic reading paper after paper from experts in the language. I wanted not only understand it, but be able to explain it to those who have no understanding of Hebrew.

Based on what you are saying here, it rules out "in that day your fate will be sealed that you will eventually die". That interpretation is reflected in NIV but not KJV. Therefore, if what you say is true, NIV is a bad translation.

I think there is value in being able to rule that out, therefore your insight is helpful in that way. Always appreciated.

But, you are seemingly deciding that it must be a literal day unnecessarily, and due to that deciding that the death must be a figurative/spiritual death rather than a literal/physical one within that day.

If day means "a long length of time" it could be the case that "death in that day" is referencing a physical death within that timeframe.

 

[Mem]

Logic and reason are a necessary component to understanding, hence the law of the new covenant is written on heart and mind. The Holy Spirit also works through logic and reason.

Logic and reason in their purest form cannot contradict the truth.

Indeed, the only earthly beings possessing this more complex type of ability, being made capable of logic and reason is consistent with being made after the image of God

 

[ewq1938]

But, you are seemingly deciding that it must be a literal day unnecessarily, and due to that deciding that the death must be a figurative/spiritual death rather than a literal/physical one within that day.

The Hebrew grammar demands that the action happen right away. If the verb paring was reversed, it demands the meaning of an action slowly happening over time.

 

[Jocund]

The Hebrew grammar demands that the action happen right away. If the verb paring was reversed, it demands the meaning of an action slowly happening over time.

Right away? Or with sudden effect?

"In that day you shall die suddenly" ?

Do you have sources that might illustrate the concept you are presenting?

 

[Gideon300]

Referencing Paul's material on the first Adam, etc. is a good approach. We can interpret "death" to be in reference to spiritual death. But, there is nothing that excludes the possibility of interpretting Gen 2:17 as a literal physical death irrespective of Paul's dialogue.

And we could take an extra leap and check to see if Paul's dialogue could also be interpretted as an explicit reference to physical death while symbolically inferring a correlated spiritual death. Paul emphasizes the importance of the literal physical resurrection and the truth that all men are appointed to die once.

With that in mind, we are still left with a puzzle in Gen 2:17, where multiple possible intepretations exist even if our first impression leads us to prefer one interpretation over the others. How should we address differences in interpretation preferences between fellow believers?



Logic and reason are a necessary component to understanding, hence the law of the new covenant is written on heart and mind. The Holy Spirit also works through logic and reason.

Logic and reason in their purest form cannot contradict the truth.

Logic and reason is why there is so much doctrinal disputation in the church. I'm an intellectual by inclination. When my peers were reading Disney, I was reading the World Book encyclopaedia. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to the spirit man. The mind should serve the spirit to give understanding of the truth. Trying to see the truth by using the mind is putting the cart before the horse.

The soul is meant to be the organ of expression. So we use the mind to explain what we see in the spirit man. Lord Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their intellectualism. They searched the scriptures, but it was of no profit to them. The scriptures, yes, the Old Testament, speak of Jesus. They could not see that.

The Bible is a spiritual book for spiritual people. Otherwise, we would not need the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. I found this out by experience. My mind is simply unable to comprehend the vastness of God. Relying on mental interpretations leads to all kinds of false interpretations. And that is the primary reason for the conflict between Christians.

 

[ewq1938]

Right away? Or with sudden effect?

Right away. Remember when the verb pairing is reversed in order of position in the verse the meaning changes to a long slow process over time. The opposite of that is a sudden and definite event.

Gill:

for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die; or "in dying, die" (z); which denotes the certainty of it, as our version expresses it; and may have regard to more deaths than one

Moreover, a spiritual or moral death immediately ensued; he lost his original righteousness, in which he was created; the image of God in him was deformed; the powers and faculties of his soul were corrupted, and he became dead in sins and trespasses

"In that day you shall die suddenly" ?

No, because that word wasn't used but it is implied by the certainty of the meaning the of the verb pairing that is found in the verse.

Do you have sources that might illustrate the concept you are presenting?

I didn't save any and there were a lot. You'll just have to google it and start reading. One or two won't be enough to get the fullest picture.

 

[DavidTree]

Just to be clear...

I believe the word 'Day' means day... as in twenty-four hours or less.
I believe the phrase 'Surely Die' means that Adam and his wife literally died... as in no Breath of Life.

They became corpses on the ground.

You believe they physically died within 24hrs after eating from the Tree of Knowledge Good & Evil???