I am the only person on Earth that believes Genesis 2:17
- Thread starter Yokefellow
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Which one of the four potential Gen 2:17 interpretations do you consider to be "as stated"?
1) Figurative death, figurative day
2) Figurative death, literal day
3) Literal death, figurative day
4) Literal death, literal day
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Gen 2:17 KJV
1) Figurative death, figurative day
2) Figurative death, literal day
3) Literal death, figurative day
4) Literal death, literal day
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Gen 2:17 KJV
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In the beginning... men lived hundreds and hundreds of years. Like, almost a thousand. But decay
had set in. Death was in the world. And in that day when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit,
the death process began. So I have "heard" it explained: They began dying. They began dying,
and then, hundreds of years later, they died. In dying, they shall die. And so they did.
had set in. Death was in the world. And in that day when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit,
the death process began. So I have "heard" it explained: They began dying. They began dying,
and then, hundreds of years later, they died. In dying, they shall die. And so they did.
The infinitive absolute verb pairing.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
When the Hebrew uses this same verb twice in a row one of the words will be spelled slightly different. One will be the infinitive absolute verb and the other is called the conjugated/inflected verb.
They can mean two different things but not both at the same time:
1. "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death. "dying thou shalt die".
OR
2. "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" re-enforcing the fact that he would definitely/surely die the literal day he sinned.
It all depends on if the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last, or vice versa.
In the manuscripts the the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last so the meaning of the verb is "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and NOT "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process.
In order for the verb to mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process it would have to have been the conjugated/inflected verb first and the infinitive absolute verb last but that is not how it appears in the manuscripts. Number 2 is the way the verb paring appears in Gen 2:17.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
When the Hebrew uses this same verb twice in a row one of the words will be spelled slightly different. One will be the infinitive absolute verb and the other is called the conjugated/inflected verb.
They can mean two different things but not both at the same time:
1. "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death. "dying thou shalt die".
OR
2. "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" re-enforcing the fact that he would definitely/surely die the literal day he sinned.
It all depends on if the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last, or vice versa.
In the manuscripts the the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last so the meaning of the verb is "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and NOT "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process.
In order for the verb to mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process it would have to have been the conjugated/inflected verb first and the infinitive absolute verb last but that is not how it appears in the manuscripts. Number 2 is the way the verb paring appears in Gen 2:17.
So what does it mean when it says that in Adam, all die, in Christ we are made alive? It also says that we are dead in trespass and sin. Obviously that does not mean physical. Yokefellow's understanding makes no sense. He can believe what he likes, of course. It reminds me of the boy watching a parade of soldiers. His dad is marching with them, but he's out of step. The boy says, "look mum, dad is the only one marching in step!" Now I don't believe in majority rules, otherwise I'd be a catholic. I do believe that the Bible needs to be studied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not according to human logic and reason.
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So it was morning for 500 years and evening for another 500 years? I find that hard to believe. And if you accept that Adam died spiritually, you have the answer. That position is supported by the New Testament. We are born dead in trespass and sin. Yet we exist for 70 years or so. So obviously death in that sense is not physical. Again, we are crucified with Christ, yet we are not physically nailed to the cross. "You died, and your life is hidden in Christ with God". Physical death is the consequence of spiritual death. Spiritual death is immediate. When we are born again, we receive resurrection life, but that again is spiritual. Our bodies do not change. That comes when we receive our new bodies.
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That seemingly speaks only to the component "מוֹת תָּמוּת thou shalt surely die" and even if we were to establish "emphasis on status" vs "emphasis on transition" I don't see how that would be indicative of the literal or figurative nature of this death, and certainly this would not speak to the literal or figurative nature of "in that day" in the verse.
Would the context of the death still not be beholden to the timeframe? ("In that day"). If that is the case, how do we determine whether "day" refers to a literal 24h or a figurative duration of time?
Would the context of the death still not be beholden to the timeframe? ("In that day"). If that is the case, how do we determine whether "day" refers to a literal 24h or a figurative duration of time?
Referencing Paul's material on the first Adam, etc. is a good approach. We can interpret "death" to be in reference to spiritual death. But, there is nothing that excludes the possibility of interpretting Gen 2:17 as a literal physical death irrespective of Paul's dialogue.
And we could take an extra leap and check to see if Paul's dialogue could also be interpretted as an explicit reference to physical death while symbolically inferring a correlated spiritual death. Paul emphasizes the importance of the literal physical resurrection and the truth that all men are appointed to die once.
With that in mind, we are still left with a puzzle in Gen 2:17, where multiple possible intepretations exist even if our first impression leads us to prefer one interpretation over the others. How should we address differences in interpretation preferences between fellow believers?
Logic and reason are a necessary component to understanding, hence the law of the new covenant is written on heart and mind. The Holy Spirit also works through logic and reason.
Logic and reason in their purest form cannot contradict the truth.
And we could take an extra leap and check to see if Paul's dialogue could also be interpretted as an explicit reference to physical death while symbolically inferring a correlated spiritual death. Paul emphasizes the importance of the literal physical resurrection and the truth that all men are appointed to die once.
With that in mind, we are still left with a puzzle in Gen 2:17, where multiple possible intepretations exist even if our first impression leads us to prefer one interpretation over the others. How should we address differences in interpretation preferences between fellow believers?
Logic and reason are a necessary component to understanding, hence the law of the new covenant is written on heart and mind. The Holy Spirit also works through logic and reason.
Logic and reason in their purest form cannot contradict the truth.
Because the language used has a specific meaning, that a death happened same day he ate the fruit. Since he remained alive, it was a spiritual death. Hebrew grammar and the verb pairing in the order it appears proves that. Ask a Hebrew scholar. I spent a year researching this topic reading paper after paper from experts in the language. I wanted not only understand it, but be able to explain it to those who have no understanding of Hebrew.
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Based on what you are saying here, it rules out "in that day your fate will be sealed that you will eventually die". That interpretation is reflected in NIV but not KJV. Therefore, if what you say is true, NIV is a bad translation.
I think there is value in being able to rule that out, therefore your insight is helpful in that way. Always appreciated.
But, you are seemingly deciding that it must be a literal day unnecessarily, and due to that deciding that the death must be a figurative/spiritual death rather than a literal/physical one within that day.
If day means "a long length of time" it could be the case that "death in that day" is referencing a physical death within that timeframe.
I think there is value in being able to rule that out, therefore your insight is helpful in that way. Always appreciated.
But, you are seemingly deciding that it must be a literal day unnecessarily, and due to that deciding that the death must be a figurative/spiritual death rather than a literal/physical one within that day.
If day means "a long length of time" it could be the case that "death in that day" is referencing a physical death within that timeframe.
Logic and reason is why there is so much doctrinal disputation in the church. I'm an intellectual by inclination. When my peers were reading Disney, I was reading the World Book encyclopaedia. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to the spirit man. The mind should serve the spirit to give understanding of the truth. Trying to see the truth by using the mind is putting the cart before the horse.
The soul is meant to be the organ of expression. So we use the mind to explain what we see in the spirit man. Lord Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their intellectualism. They searched the scriptures, but it was of no profit to them. The scriptures, yes, the Old Testament, speak of Jesus. They could not see that.
The Bible is a spiritual book for spiritual people. Otherwise, we would not need the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. I found this out by experience. My mind is simply unable to comprehend the vastness of God. Relying on mental interpretations leads to all kinds of false interpretations. And that is the primary reason for the conflict between Christians.
The soul is meant to be the organ of expression. So we use the mind to explain what we see in the spirit man. Lord Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their intellectualism. They searched the scriptures, but it was of no profit to them. The scriptures, yes, the Old Testament, speak of Jesus. They could not see that.
The Bible is a spiritual book for spiritual people. Otherwise, we would not need the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. I found this out by experience. My mind is simply unable to comprehend the vastness of God. Relying on mental interpretations leads to all kinds of false interpretations. And that is the primary reason for the conflict between Christians.
Right away. Remember when the verb pairing is reversed in order of position in the verse the meaning changes to a long slow process over time. The opposite of that is a sudden and definite event.
Gill:
No, because that word wasn't used but it is implied by the certainty of the meaning the of the verb pairing that is found in the verse.
I didn't save any and there were a lot. You'll just have to google it and start reading. One or two won't be enough to get the fullest picture.
Gill:
No, because that word wasn't used but it is implied by the certainty of the meaning the of the verb pairing that is found in the verse.
I didn't save any and there were a lot. You'll just have to google it and start reading. One or two won't be enough to get the fullest picture.
