Faith or Law?

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If we submit to the Holy Spirit, what would He remind us of and cause us to obey? His commands.

You say we are to follow the Holy Spirit. So what is He doing that we should follow? He's not going to go against God the Father or Lord Jesus. And He's not going to sin or give in to temptation.

No, He would want us to resist sin and overcome temptaion. And He can help us to do just that.

So really think about what it means to follow the Holy Spirit. It is to obey God and resist sin in His power.


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You don't have to apologise for bearing false witness against me, no one ever does who says we must obey the ten commandments:

The christian looks away from the law and to Christ, they follow after the Spirit by so doing. We do not follow after the law as Paul states. The more you look to Christ and rely on the Holy Spirit for sanctification the more the fruits of the Spirit grow in your life(Gal5:22) Against that fruit there is no law, (verse23) for that fruit is how God wants you to live your life
 
You don't have to apologise for bearing false witness against me, no one ever does who says we must obey the ten commandments:

The christian looks away from the law and to Christ, they follow after the Spirit by so doing. We do not follow after the law as Paul states. The more you look to Christ and rely on the Holy Spirit for sanctification the more the fruits of the Spirit grow in your life(Gal5:22) Against that fruit there is no law, (verse23) for that fruit is how God wants you to live your life


God isn't going to force you to submit and obey Him, so why are you getting crazy about this?

Don't obey Him then if you think thats what He really wants.

But deep in your heart you know He wants you to submit to him. That's the Holy Spirit trying to lead you. Please don't quench or grieve. Him. He will help you to follow Him as you should.


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God isn't going to force you to submit and obey Him, so why are you getting crazy about this?

Don't obey Him then if you think thats what He really wants.

But deep in your heart you know He wants you to submit to him. That's the Holy Spirit trying to lead you. Please don't quench or grieve. Him. He will help you to follow Him as you should.


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More bearing of false witness, its so easy for you people to transgress the laws you insist must be obeyed. I could not so casually transgress them myself
Once again, you do not look to the law, Paul's words. You look to Christ and trust him, relying on the sanctification of the Spirit. The more you do that the more the fruits of the spirit grow in your life, against that fruit there is no law for that fruit is how God wants you to live your life. But if you want to keep bearing false witness against me, fine, its not me it is hurting
 
IF you bear the fruit of the Spirit, such as love, you fulfill the law. And that's without even having to think of the law.
And I would add, while you are looking to Christ and trusting him, and relying on the Spirit for sanctification you cannot be seeking to wilfully follow after the flesh, it is one or the other
 
And I would add, while you are looking to Christ and trusting him, and relying on the Spirit for sanctification you cannot be seeking to wilfully follow after the flesh, it is one or the other
As soon as you so much as wonder if you're keeping the law, you have ventured to consult your discernment of the law, and your own judgment as to whether you've either transgressed or kept it. This is a heavy burden that no one can carry with any solid standing. For example, there are debates involving the degrees in distinction between killing and murder. But if you rely on the Spirit's lead, you're concerned about the distinction in the degrees of kindness and love.
 
More bearing of false witness, its so easy for you people to transgress the laws you insist must be obeyed. I could not so casually transgress them myself
Once again, you do not look to the law, Paul's words. You look to Christ and trust him, relying on the sanctification of the Spirit. The more you do that the more the fruits of the spirit grow in your life, against that fruit there is no law for that fruit is how God wants you to live your life. But if you want to keep bearing false witness against me, fine, its not me it is hurting


All this is hitting home to you or you wouldn't be resisting as hard as you are.

i don't know why this is so upsetting tom you. I will testify that it is pleasing to God to submit to the Holy Spirit and obey Him by His power.

It's not so much about following rules anymore, you see, but about your fellowship with the Lord. If you love someone, you want to do the things that makes that person happy. God just happens to like it when we put him first to obey him and resist sin. He made that completely possible in the Holy Spirit.


IF you bear the fruit of the Spirit, such as love, you fulfill the law. And that's without even having to think of the law.

Yes, loving God is the priority. Its not just affectionate feelings. It's actually obeying Him.

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.


And I would add, while you are looking to Christ and trusting him, and relying on the Spirit for sanctification you cannot be seeking to wilfully follow after the flesh, it is one or the other

It's not a sin to obey God if you love Him.

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.


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As soon as you so much as wonder if you're keeping the law, you have ventured to consult your discernment of the law, and your own judgment as to whether you've either transgressed or kept it. This is a heavy burden that no one can carry with any solid standing. For example, there are debates involving the degrees in distinction between killing and murder. But if you rely on the Spirit's lead, you're concerned about the distinction in the degrees of kindness and love.


Just focus on making God happy. He just happens to like it when we obey Him and resist sin.

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.


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Yes, loving God is the priority. Its not just affectionate feelings. It's actually obeying Him.

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.

Obeying his commandments involves keeping up with them. He stopped talking about those commandments 'you have heard that it was said to people long ago (Matt 5:21)." But we have to keep following His conversation, "But I tell you...(Matt 5:22)."
 
All this is hitting home to you or you wouldn't be resisting as hard as you are.



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If you wish to believe that But its not me transgressing the ten commandments in our conversation is it:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6

What does following after the Spirit produce?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Gal5:22&23

Why are you getting so upset? Do you think the fruits of the spirit will bring you into conflict with God's laws?
While you are looking to Christ and trusting him and relying on the Spirit for sanctification you cannot at the same time be seeking to wilfully follow after the flesh
 
in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law"
No, Paul did not "contrast" the Book of the Law with anything. Rather, he conflated "the Book of the law" with "the law".

and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God
Wrong again. Galatians 3:10-12 says nothing about upholding the law. Paul is clearly referring to the Law of God. It is unreasonable to drag Romans 3:31 into Galatians. Deal with Galatians independently and then relate it to the message of Romans 3.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His instructions
Except that doing so is impossible today.

it would be contradictory for someone to think that we should rely on God for salvation instead of on His instructions, and the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.
That sounds so rational... but isn't, because it is based on your ideas of what is consistent or contradictory.

In fact, and according to Scripture, the Law was given to ancient Israel, not to the Church. The Church exists by faith, not by adherence to the Law.
 
Please address my position instead of trying to assign me one.
I will address your position, and then I will see if you address mine. The council of Jerusalem decided which mosaic laws should be followed
 
Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being doer of the it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.
That is just silly. According to you,

"Jesus saves us from being sinners so that we aren't sinners."

That's it, that's all.

You need to read the rest of the Bible! Salvation is FAR MORE that what you pretend it to be.
 
Obeying his commandments involves keeping up with them. He stopped talking about those commandments 'you have heard that it was said to people long ago (Matt 5:21).".... But you have to keep following His conversation, "But I tell you...(Matt 5:22)."


Why did Jesus say

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.

You guys just want Jesus as your Savior, but not you Lord. He MUST be both.


If you wish to believe that But its not me transgressing the ten commandments in our conversation is it:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6

What does following after the Spirit produce?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Gal5:22&23

Why are you getting so upset? Do you think the fruits of the spirit will bring you into conflict with God's laws?
While you are looking to Christ and trusting him and relying on the Spirit for sanctification you cannot at the same time be seeking to wilfully follow after the flesh


Why should I be Upset? I like making God happy! Obeying God isn't hard or miserable. Its actually very freeing and clean. It's quite joyful because He shares His joy.

When God says

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.

He's not referring to jewish laws that no longer count. He's talking about his own laws that he wrote on our hearts..

He's made them so easy to obey by the Holy Spirit that I don't know why you dont want to love Him the way He wants us to.


Jesus can't just be you savior. He MUST be your LORD too.

Romans 10:9-10 (NIV)
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Philippians 2:11
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
No one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.


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Why did Jesus say

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.

You guys just want Jesus as your Savior, but not you Lord. He MUST be both.





Why should I be Upset? I like making God happy! Obeying God isn't hard or miserable. Its actually very freeing and clean. It's quite joyful because He shares His joy.

When God says

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.

He's not referring to jewish laws that no longer count. He's talking about his own laws that he wrote on our hearts..

He's made them so easy to obey by the Holy Spirit that I don't know why you dont want to love Him the way He wants us to.


Jesus can't just be you savior. He MUST be your LORD too.

Romans 10:9-10 (NIV)
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Philippians 2:11
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
No one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.


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Yes, you have twice said it is easy to obey the laws, you mean the ten commandments don't you. But Paul does not agree with you does he. So why do you disagree with him?
Why does it offend you to look away from the law and to Christ and rely on the Spirit for sanctification? The fruits of the Spirit will not bring you into conflict with God's laws
Why do you think the law is in the hearts and minds of believers?
It cuts out a licence to sin under grace.
John14:15
Carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians6:2
 
Yes, you have twice said it is easy to obey the laws, you mean the ten commandments don't you. But Paul does not agree with you does he. So why do you disagree with him?
Why does it offend you to look away from the law and to Christ and rely on the Spirit for sanctification? The fruits of the Spirit will not bring you into conflict with God's laws
Why do you think the law is in the hearts and minds of believers?
It cuts out a licence to sin under grace.
John14:15
Carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.


I don't disagree with him,Paul said

Galatians 5:16–18, Paul says, Walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

So even Paul says it's easy. He even says we won't even be under the law’s condemning authority or its rigid, external demands. It will just come naturally. Because it's internal now, the laws God has written in our hearts!

Just try and submit to the Holy Spirit and you'll start to see yourself obeying the commands God has written in your heart. You'll start to make godly choices and you'll even marvel at how easy it is to say no to sin and temptation.

This encouragement is nor just for you, but for anyone who reads this. This is why God is so awesome!


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Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so there is a direct connection between our gift of salvation and being a doer of the Law of God and the key is to figure out what that is and is not. We can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect 100% obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of earning our salvation in the first place, but Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being doer of the it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly.


Sin is the transgression of Law of God (1 John 3:4), so the way to sin is not by slavish obedience to it, but just the opposite.


The context of Habakkuk 2 does not preset the righteous living by faith as an alternative way of living that is not in obedience to the Law of God, but just the opposite. In Isaiah 51:7, righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of God, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith is describing the way that the righteous live in obedience to the Law of God.


If the letter referred to correctly following God's instructions and that leads to death, then that would mean that God would be misleading us and shouldn't be trusted, but rather the Bible repeatedly states that obedience to the Law of God leads to life and that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey, so there must something deficient about following the letter that is missing the goal of the law that causes it to lead to death rather than life. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk I the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

The Hebrew word "yada" refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained through experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God's way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by experiencing embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know (yada) God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

The problem is that someone can go through the motions of obeying the Law of God (following the letter) while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits of God that it was given in order to teach us how to embody and thus neglect to know God and Jesus, which leads to death rather than life. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursuing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been in the same situation where he had been zealous for obeying the Law of God, but not while being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted that as rubbish.


The way to bear fruit for God is not by dying to His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him, but by dying to a law that was hindering us from doing that, namely the law of sin.


In Psalm 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so do you think that this verse is expressing a correct view of obeying the Law of God?

In Deuteronomy 6:4-7 the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially by. being obsessed with the Law of God. It is absurd to suggest that by being obsessed with following God's instructions for how to worship him that we are worshiping those instructions instead of God and the way to worship God is certainly not be refusing to follow his instructions for how to worship Him. In Matthew 5:14-16, Jesus did not warn against doing good works in obedience to the Law of God by saying that take gory and emphasis away from him, but rather he encouraged us to do them because they give glory to God.


Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey he Law of God by word and by example and his problem in Galatians was not with them being followers of Christ. Can you quote a single person from this forum as saying that they place the Law of God above God Himself? Or are you just arbitrarily assigning that position to some people in this forum?
No one says specifically that they place the law of God above God Himself. Jesus said that people speak from the abundance of the heart. And what are some people always talking about? How wonderful the grace of God is? How wonderful it is to have our sins forgiven? How good it is to be a new creation in Christ? How wonderful it is to be born again? No. They talk about how the believer must never sin, must obey the law and argue against the Word that contradicts them. That is putting the Law above God Himself.
 
You guys just want Jesus as your Savior, but not you Lord.

You did not follow His conversation. I even provided a link so that you could.

You left Him at Mt Sinai and claim that you've kept His word. You've regarded Him as a tool in your service if ever you happen fail in keeping the law.

I don't have to check if you failed. I know you constantly fail, and it is only the grace of God that doesn't remember them.

Nobody needs a license to sin; there's no such thing. It comes to you, the same as everyone else, naturally.

But doing good comes to you naturally now. Sure, it does. :rolleyes:
 
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I don't disagree with him,Paul said

Galatians 5:16–18, Paul says, Walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

So even Paul says it's easy. He even says we won't even be under the law’s condemning authority or its rigid, external demands. It will just come naturally. Because it's internal now, the laws God has written in our hearts!

Just try and submit to the Holy Spirit and you'll start to see yourself obeying the commands God has written in your heart. You'll start to make godly choices and you'll even marvel at how easy i5 is to say no to sin and tempt

This encouragement is nor just for you, but for anyone who reads this. This why God is so awesome!


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You seem to suppose that those who look to the law seek to, and do live a holier life
That has not been my experience over decades from what I have seen. And it is not Paul's view as to how to live a holier life either.
I wonder how many honest and humble folk would agree with you, it is easy to obey the laws/Ten Commandments? Paul referred to them as the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation didn't he. I am always wary of people who say it is easy to obey the law. Generally speaking I would doubt they have the conviction they should as to what obedience entails.
As one person noted:
If the ten commandments are written in your mind and placed on your heart, how could you believe you fully obey them?