Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

they don't believe because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:16-19

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it isthe power of God unto salvation to every onethat believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

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2Co 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The hiders have CHOSEN to perish, despite being fully informed of the truth and facts. They WILLFULLY HIDE the talent.

Mat 25:25 - ‘And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Meaning of "Suppress" / "Withhold"
The Greek word used in this verse is katechō (κατεχόντων), which can be translated as "to hold down," "restrain," "hinder," "suppress," or "hold back". The core idea is an active, willful resistance to the truth that people inherently know about God.

Active Effort: It is not merely passive ignorance, but an active effort to push down or ignore the light of conscience and natural revelation because of a love for sin and a desire for independence from God's authority.

 

[Rufus]

Our stubornness usually have to be driven to trust God by the torment of living in the flesh and being unable to conquer it. The person described in Romans 7 was an exemplar of such a life.


I agree that God makes people (to varying degrees) aware of their need for the Savior. Only apostates can become totally insensitive to His drawing

And the ungodly, God-hating world cannot become totally insensitive to His drawing? The ungodly world has a superior human nature to "apostates"?

While I have you here, I have this question for you, please: Do those whom the Father gives to the Son go to the Son?

 

[brightfame52]

They are kept from seeing the light of the gospel. Read the verses.

The Gospel is hidden to them that are lost. If we are lost, the Gospel is hidden.

 

[Rufus]

Grace is God's working principle. Do you not know this? Salvation is but one thing done by means of grace. Do you deserve the sunshine and the rain? No, it is given on the basis of grace, for the Lord can easily withhold both if He desired.

You mean like the Lord did with Ishmael?

 

[Rufus]

I would say they (the Rom.1 type) heard the truth but didn't learn in the sense of how we describe "taking it to heart". Within the John 6 passage I think Jesus is referring to learning as those who trust the data to be true and rely on it .

From whom did "they" hear this truth: The trees, rocks, the oceans, the stars, the sun, the moon, the animals?

 

[Cameron143]

The Gospel is hidden to them that are lost. If we are lost, the Gospel is hidden.

Agree. But it isn't hidden because Bibles aren't available or the gospel isn't being preached. It's hidden because their minds are veiled, keeping understanding of the gospel from them.

 

[Rufus]

Wrong again. Faith doesn't come from audibly hearing the gospel. If it did, the Bible would say...faith comes by hearing the word of God. Instead, it says...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That is the power of the gospel Paul was referring to. Notice, it is only the power of God unto salvation for those who actually believe.

Unless any of us limit the extent of the Gospel to a very narrow window, as FWers are prone to do, I would argue that the Gospel consists of ALL God's revelation. God did not inspire his Word with useless, extraneous verbiage. ALL scripture is spiritually useful and important, and at the end of the day impacts the the Message of Life (2Tim 3:16). And Jesus didn't limit Life to the Gospel "proper" either. He said that [all] his Words are spirit and life (Jn 6:63)!

 

[Rufus]

Are you kidding? Adam and Eve didn't have to trust God? You think they were relying on themselves to grow the garden? I thought you were smarter than this. We trust in God to give us our next breath. You speak of God's sovereignty then make silly statements. And your last statement seems to contradict your first.

Oh...so God didn't create man to be autonomous? He created and designed them to be dependent upon Him, correct?

 

[Rufus]

I get it. You don't understand the difference between natural and supernatural.

What they truly don't want to understand is that God's work of salvation is 100% supernatural in nature. They CANNOT concede this, for if they did, they would have to trash their idol of "freewill".

 

[Rufus]

God's grace power is getting all the negative influence of your flesh silenced over its natural state of enslaving your soul.
It is with our heart (soul) that we believe.
God's grace makes that possible.

That is why we must be saved by grace.

Another lie! God's grace makes that effectual.

 

[Cameron143]

Unless any of us limit the extent of the Gospel to a very narrow window, as FWers are prone to do, I would argue that the Gospel consists of ALL God's revelation. God did not inspire his Word with useless, extraneous verbiage. ALL scripture is spiritually useful and important, and at the end of the day impacts the the Message of Life (2Tim 3:16). And Jesus didn't limit Life to the Gospel "proper" either. He said that [all] his Words are spirit and life (Jn 6:63)!

Agree, but that wasn't my point.

 

[Rufus]

God IS love.
It does not say simply that God loves all.
Because, God will not love what His justice condemns.

​

Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​

​

You want to argue some more?

You're shifting what you stated earlier. You categorically DENIED that Agape Love is the Greatest Force for Good in this universe and claimed that Justice is that Greatest Force. Better bone up on 1Cor 13 someday. (Maybe spend a few months in the chapter. Perhaps God will open your blind eyes.) The two greatest Commandments are based on Love not Justice, upon which the entire OT is hinged. And Love is the Greatest Virtue of them all, not Justice. Moreover, it's not Justice that moves God to actually save anyone, it is his eternal love for his people. And his chosen ones in return will respond in obedience/faithfulness out of their LOVE for Him.

 

[Rufus]

Agree, but that wasn't my point.

I know it wasn't but I just wanted to share your point from another perspective.

 

[brightfame52]

Agree. But it isn't hidden because Bibles aren't available or the gospel isn't being preached. It's hidden because their minds are veiled, keeping understanding of the gospel from them.

Yes it is hidden because they are lost.

 

[Rufus]

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It doesn't say it is the power of God for being born again. All that is required to be born again is the Spirit. He makes us spiritually alive.

Clearly, CV5 doesn't believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Life!

 

[Rufus]

ROFL You think being born requires no power? I gave birth to three kids, took all my energy, especially the first. In fact I was so exhausted I couldn't even hold her in my arms. I had to call the nurse over before I dropped her.

My argument has not been what you are trying to make it now. Stop moving the goal posts.

Being born requires power on behalf of the one birthing which, in the case of regeneration, is the Spirit. You received that power and you said only believers receive God's power. So either you believed before regeneration or you did not and received power as an unbeliever. We are talking about power to be born, not the power of the Gospel unto salvation.

Would you have had any of your children in the first place if it weren't God's will?

 

[brightfame52]

@Genez

It is with our heart (soul) that we believe.

Yes but not with the natural hard heart we have by nature, but with that new heart given in regeneration.

 

[Cameron143]

Clearly, CV5 doesn't believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Life!

Many don't seem to.

 

[sawdust]

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

How does that answer the question? Having knowledge of something doesn't mean one is without choice. Romans 1 had knowledge God existed but chose to disregard that and exchange the truth for a lie. The Pharisees had knowledge Christ claimed to be the Messiah but they chose to disregard that and crucify Him instead.

If I make you do something, how do you have a choice? The poster spoke of having choice while at the same time being made to believe. Does not make sense and I don't see your comment having any solution to the situation.

Maybe you care to elaborate further? It would certainly make a nice change from you simply disliking my posts behind my back all the time. Face me and speak up.

 

[sawdust]

@sawdust

Sorry, should have included these verses too

[Luk 1:77-79 KJV]
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

I still see no solution to the problem in those verses. Make me do something while still giving me the choice. Does not compute Will Robinson.