Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

no I'm living in Manchester, London is to way to expensive these days, I've only ever been there a few times

Oh, so you are sort of in the middle of the island, Manchester is known as the birthplace of the industrial revolution! When I look at a list of bands from there I would have to say The Verve was my fave, although when I look them up it says they are from Wigan... distance between Manchester and Wigan is 26 kilometers (16 miles), that is a bit farther than my daughter lives from me, but not a bad drive all told. I normally would be seeing her today but she was concerned about so many people at her workplace being sick this week so... Have you ever been to North America? I have never been "across the pond" as we say. One of my co-workers was just in England and Scotland very recently.

 

[Genez]

How about JUSTICE on God's part!? You talk as though God owed Adam salvation!

God provided Adam a chance for salvation.
Adam owed God repentance for that chance.

Revelation 13:8​

​

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written ​

in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.​

God already planned for the fall of man and the solution.

The fall of man was to be used to teach Satan and his fallen angels a needed lesson to get them to stop lying about God's integrity.
God sovereignly provided His teaching tool for what was needed by angels to put a stop to their lies about God.

That teaching tool was?
The *perfect* teaching tool?
Came into being when Adam ate that fruit!

For, with the fall of man?
The sins of men began producing overt actions.
Angels were to learn the perspective of the actions that evil thoughts of Satan and his angels would have produced if allowed the power to do so.

After all? God judged Satan for a thought he had against God.
Having come out a pristine world, angels could not yet understand the implications of their desires.

Fallen man and what he produces in his sins, reveals to all the angels why God was perfect and just in His condemnation
of Satan and his angels. For how could God condemn Satan for murder when murder was being a foreign concept to angels?

In order to allow for man to become fallen?
All fallen by the choice of only one man, Adam?
God placed himself in a position to offer men a means to be made free from remaining forever fallen.



grace and peace......

 

[Jordon]

He's way beyond that already. He's totally off the rails spiritually.

if he's gone of them he could have been on them to

But I'm just thinking what you said I can understand why your so annoyed by bad doctrine,

But I don't think Adam was a type of satan or his spiritual father was satan, he would have definitely gone that way if God hadn't decided to give him a hedge of protection.

You could argue that eve was decieved, and so she never willingly gave her soul to the devil.

But not Adam, he willfully accepted the offering, there could be a difference between. Willfully accepting and being decieved, but that would be conjecture because it doesn't state eve was not decieved.

All tho eve was guilty of something as she got punished to

But if it was the case eve was decieved then its is possible God could have spared there marriage
As it could be Adam did in deed eat to save his wife or felt it would save his wife if he did

 

[Genez]

I do not believe Adam was with Eve when the serpent beguiled her.

Adam would not have stood silent. He would have spoken up.
.

If you were Adam knowing what you know now, he would have.

 

[Rufus]

That is in fact the lie that Satan told. Dude. Are you saying you believe I am calling God a liar?

Adam did indeed die the day he ate! His forced ejection from the Garden by God denotes a separation from the Life of God which filled the Garden, which was really the first temple on record in scripture. And this accounts for Eve's conspicuous absence from Gen 3:22-14 because when God reconciled her to himself in v.15, He he made it possible for her to share in His Life -- the one and only True Life! The "tree of life" simply was a symbol of spiritual life -- not the substance of it. When God prohibited Adam from eating from this tree, He was teaching that spiritual life is not for the taking by any mere mortal but can only be received as sovereign gift of God.

 

[Rufus]

if he's gone of them he could have been on them to

But I'm just thinking what you said I can understand why your so annoyed by bad doctrine,

But I don't think Adam was a type of satan or his spiritual father was satan, he would have definitely gone that way if God hadn't decided to give him a hedge of protection.

You could argue that eve was decieved, and so she never willingly gave her soul to the devil.

But not Adam, he willfully accepted the offering, there could be a difference between. Willfully accepting and being decieved, but that would be conjecture because it doesn't state eve was not decieved.

All tho eve was guilty of something as she got punished to

But if it was the case eve was decieved then its is possible God could have spared there marriage
As it could be Adam did in deed eat to save his wife or felt it would save his wife if he did

There was no "hedge protection" given to Adam (whatever you mean this phrase). And, yes, Adam was a type of Satan. Stay tuned...

 

[Blain]

There was no "hedge protection" given to Adam (whatever you mean this phrase). And, yes, Adam was a type of Satan. Stay tuned...

A type of satan? how? Did he try to overthrow God and his throne? Did he spread lies to influence people? did he steal or kill? did he see himself as higher than God?

 

[Rufus]

I see, so you've used maths to get to your answer when Adam sinned, and you say he was seventy years old, with not even a mention he could have been ?

So he was seventy years old in the garden of eden and he willfully did what he did. Ok buddy well you know you can use maths to workout when things happend, in bibble like timelines and you get some where close, but to say he was 70, that's to confident, and I would say by the many self righteous responses you've given already your ego of pride is your biggest problem, of not accepting your wrong.

Yeah sure I can understand your frustration in searching for answer by what appears to be many days of research and stuff, but because you think you've discovered something with a level of intelligence doesn't make it right.

So I guess your one those who can't stand to have there intelligence insulted by the looks of it.

CV5's god is Adam, and as a huge admirer of his superhero, he probably attributes all of Adam's supersmarts, intelligence, wisdom to himself. In fact, he likely thinks he's smarter than his spiritual daddy.

 

[Rufus]

A type of satan? how? Did he try to overthrow God and his throne? Did he spread lies to influence people? did he steal or kill? did he see himself as higher than God?

Stay tuned...

 

[Genez]

To the simple-minded my position would certainly appear to be ridiculous.l

Of course....

 

[Doll]

I wonder why you feel you need to come against me so strongly with all your false accusations and shamefully
graceless aggression simply because I caution people against following an apostate atheist, especially in light
of things Jesus said, which I have already posted to you but which you choose to ignore. But I do not expect the
truth from you on this matter, as you have already shown yourself to be a liar, and a repeat offender at that.

Still projecting through transference. Everything you said is you. No one else.

You're derailing this thread.
This ends now.

 

[Jordon]

Oh, so you are sort of in the middle of the island, Manchester is known as the birthplace of the industrial revolution! When I look at a list of bands from there I would have to say The Verve was my fave, although when I look them up it says they are from Wigan... distance between Manchester and Wigan is 26 kilometers (16 miles), that is a bit farther than my daughter lives from me, but not a bad drive all told. I normally would be seeing her today but she was concerned about so many people at her workplace being sick this week so... Have you ever been to North America? I have never been "across the pond" as we say. One of my co-workers was just in England and Scotland very recently.

Wigan is Manchester to well greater Manchester, but more Manchester in certain areas.,

The only time I've ever been to the USA was as kid we went to Canada but I don't remember much about it. But we use that saying over here to a brothers from across the pond lol

 

[Doll]

Who would that be pray tell? Chronister perhaps?
I know that you hate the man's guts.

I consider him one of the finest bible teachers of this present age IMO.
His analytical genius is second to none.

She's talking about Professor Bart Ehrman.
Who is as educated as you observed. I don't know who Chronister is. I thought it was BE you were giving props to.

As an aside,you and I both know,those in Christ hate no one.

 

[Rufus]

Have to agree:

Undiluted Wrath and Undiluted Grace!

Amen.

Hah...someone here actually gets it! God's nature will permit him to love only that which is GOOD! And since man, by his nature, is not Good, then it's not possible to love anyone with an evil heart, which is the fountainhead of all evil. I submit that this is one of the big reasons why scripture explicitly teaches us what kind of people God loves (the righteous, God-fearers, lovers of God, lovers of His Son) -- and it ain't sinners! God's love in scripture is always qualified.

 

[Jordon]

That is just it isn't it? it flies in the face of peoples doctrines and beliefs and so therefore it couldn't possibly be true could itt? Yet in people minds they are unwilling to admit they may be wrong and thus do not have a learning spirit they just want to be right

Even though the scriptures are pretty clear on this subject

When you think it about it, we had the discussion about other people claiming you can lose your salvation, so when you apply
,It's Gods will who can save you, it truly means you have complete assurance and you can't lose salvation because God's will is saving you and keeping you saved.
As Gods will also includes his sovereign will whom he chooses to be saved

 

[Rufus]

God provided Adam a chance for salvation.
Adam owed God repentance for that chance.

Revelation 13:8​

​

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written ​

in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.​

God already planned for the fall of man and the solution.

The fall of man was to be used to teach Satan and his fallen angels a needed lesson to get them to stop lying about God's integrity.
God sovereignly provided His teaching tool for what was needed by angels to put a stop to their lies about God.

That teaching tool was?
The *perfect* teaching tool?
Came into being when Adam ate that fruit!

For, with the fall of man?
The sins of men began producing overt actions.
Angels were to learn the perspective of the actions that evil thoughts of Satan and his angels would have produced if allowed the power to do so.

After all? God judged Satan for a thought he had against God.
Having come out a pristine world, angels could not yet understand the implications of their desires.

Fallen man and what he produces in his sins, reveals to all the angels why God was perfect and just in His condemnation
of Satan and his angels. For how could God condemn Satan for murder when murder was being a foreign concept to angels?

In order to allow for man to become fallen?
All fallen by the choice of only one man, Adam?
God placed himself in a position to offer men a means to be made free from remaining forever fallen.



grace and peace......

Which clearly contradicts scripture. If what you say is true, God cannot possibly save anyone by grace since grace by definition is unmerited, undeserved favor. To speak of His grace and indebtedness to mankind in one breath is an oxymoron.

 

[cv5]

She's talking about Professor Bart Ehrman.
Who is as educated as you observed. I don't know who Chronister is. I thought it was BE you were giving props to.

As an aside,you and I both know,those in Christ hate no one.

Agree. Nor are we empowered to separate the tares from the wheat. Not our business.

These hateful tirades and brutal blanket accusations must stop.
But......if anything they seem to be getting worse as time progresses.

 

[GWH]

[
well Jesus said those who love me will be free indeed

Who the lord sets free will be free indeed

Well what about those who don't love God

Paul said Christians should not exercise their freedom to revert to believing salvation is via obeying the law (Gal. 5:1-4),
nor should they use their freedom to indulge the flesh but rather to serve one another in love or walk by the Spirit (Gal. 5:13-18).
Those who don't love God commit sins including sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, etc. (Gal. 5:19-21), whereas those who are
led by the Spirit exhibit love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, etc. (Gal. 5:22-23).

 

[Rufus]

How Adam is a POSITIVE type of Satan:

Here is copy of nearly a one year old post in another thread that I wrote dealing with this topic:

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived became a sinner.


2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

What's even worse is the Word tells us Adam was not deceived which means Adam knew eating of the tree was a sin before he did it. That of course is worse than what Eve did but of course does not absolve her of wrong doing.

Adam was not deceived by the devil! In fact, when Adam told God that the woman "you gave me" gave me the fruit and I ate of, he didn't even claim that Eve deceived him! This is precisely what makes Adam's sin most egregious, as you have rightly suggested: Adam sinned with his eyes wide open! The best Adam could do with his answer to God is to insinuate to God's face that He had given him a defective woman, thereby not owning his transgression! Adam's sin, ultimately, was the sin of PRIDE -- and not a result of deception -- unless you include self-deception. Doesn't scripture teach that pride goeth before destruction and haughty spirit before a fall (Prov 16:18)? Adam has much in common with his spiritual daddy; for pride was the evil one's downfall, too, wasn't it? Adam's sin is that he wanted to be just like God (have His knowledge of Good and Evil). The devil, too, wanted to be just like God, as you might recall (Isa 14 and Ezek 28).

There are other ways, too, that Adam is like Satan. You might recall from my argument that Adam, like Satan, had empirical proof of God's existence; whereas Eve did not. But here's another way Adam is like his spiritual father the Serpent: You might recall that Satan was a being of unusual and striking beauty. Apparently, no created being compared to him. Adam, too, had the distinction of being endowed with unusually high intelligence, evidently possessing a great deal of working knowledge of this world. For one thing, he was this world's first scientist (in multiple disciplines no less!), for God initially tasked him with the job of classifying and naming all the animals. (In today's world that discipline of science is called Taxonomy.) He was also tasked with the awesome, mind-blowing responsibility of cultivating the Garden so that it would extend throughout the entire earth. (That science discipline, of course, is known today as Horticulture.)

Finally, there is a fourth way Adam is like the devil! It is said in holy writ that the devil holds the power of death (Heb 2:14). Yet, at the same time scripture teaches that death came upon the whole world by one man's transgression (Rom 5:12-20; 1Cor 15:22). Talk about "like father like son"!

In closing, not only is Adam contrasted with Christ, and not only does scripture speak of him in negative terms in other respects, but now we find that he has quite a bit in common with the Serpent of old; for they both shared the same dubious qualities or distinctions. Adam: Very much unlike Christ and very much like his spiritual father. Who can reasonably think this is a winning [spiritual] Xacta!?

ADDENDUM:

A fifth way Adam is like Satan is just just as the devil was cast out of heaven, away from God's Holy Presence, after he sinned, likewise Adam was driven from God's Presence in the Garden.

 

[Blain]

When you think it about it, we had the discussion about other people claiming you can lose your salvation, so when you apply
,It's Gods will who can save you, it truly means you have complete assurance and you can't lose salvation because God's will is saving you and keeping you saved.
As Gods will also includes his sovereign will whom he chooses to be saved

If salvation was in our hands then yes we could lose it but considering that it is in the fathers hands and not by our own merit or doing then no in my opinion we cannot just lose it