Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

concerning katallássō ... yes, you are in unbelief.






I did not say that ... and, no, my statement was not intended to infer you were an unbeliever.

A week or so ago I submitted a post wherein I mentioned that I don't care if someone believes God gives the new heart to the natural man when he or she believes ... or whether God gives the new heart to the natural man so that he or she is enabled to believe and thereafter is born again ... all I care about is the baby ... the new birth within ...

I also mentioned in a separate post that I sometimes ask folks who post here if Jesus Christ is Lord in their life ... and some won't even acknowledge that He is Lord in their life. Isn't the Lord Jesus Christ the very life of the born again believer ? ... outside of Him there is no life? ... and we can't acknowledge that He is Lord ??? ... so bizarre ...
.

Jesus is Lord and that to the glory of God the Father. And I'm not in unbelief regardless of your claim. You profess you don't care about when the Spirit is given, and then say my understanding represents unbelief. Your statement is inconsistent with the whole of your comments.

 

[rogerg]

The problem with that theory is that God takes no pleasure in death so you effectively having Him schizoid by condemning people to death on the basis of His good pleasure. Eze.18:32

If you contend that the lost are not on the basis of His good pleasure, then you have Him being an irresponsible Father who neglects some of his creation. Eze.18:4

Either way, you have a problem Houston.

Eze 18:4 and 18: 18:32 are describing the requirements of the Old Covenant (OC). It was an earthly works-based covenant, by which, no one could/can ever become saved, it was replaced by/with the New Covenant (NC). The NC unconditionally and freely gives eternal salvation solely through God's exceeding mercy and grace by Jesus Christ, unto those for whom it was intended as a free gift. As the Savior - and on their behalf - Jesus Christ perfectly satisfied all of its requirements.

Observe:

OC:
[Eze 18:30-32 KJV]
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

NC:
[Heb 8:10-13 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Look, I have no intention of going back and forth with you on this. Read the above and take it to heart. Should you have any honest questions that I might help with, let me know.

 

[sawdust]

Do you understand what "virtually" means?

God KNOWS because of his eternal decrees. As explained on previous occasions, an excellent example of this can be seen in Ex 3-4. God predicts to Moses in chapter 3 that Pharaoh will not let his people go. Then in chapter 4, God reveals to Moses how he knows this, i.e. "I will harden his heart". Also see act 2:22-23 (and pay attention to the order of the words in v.23 -- that "plan" logically precedes "foreknowledge" in the sentence). Also see Act 4:27-29). And, of course, the well known evils that befell Joseph in the OT, for God's hand worked very actively in Joseph's life, etc.

Foreknowledge does not apply to unbelievers.

 

[sawdust]

And I have told you "time and time again" that God's grace that is actually bestowed upon people works only in ONE WAY, i.e. it always has a POSITIVE result or effect. God's grace is not "yes" and "no" gift, whereby in your scenario the vast majority of the recipients reject the gospel in spite of his gift of grace. God's gift of grace in the bible always results in positive outcomes, never negative ones. Give me one biblical example to prove me wrong! You have ZERO biblical evidence to back up your absurd claim.

And your lame theology's stench rises out of 300 "brick out houses".

It does have a positive effect, it squashes the sin nature which would otherwise dominate the soul and not allow a genuine response. It is the flesh that is against the Spirit. Gal.5:17 The soul can decide for itself once the flesh is subdued. Those who prefer darkness reject the truth. Not everyone prefers darkness.

Apart from it being illogical, you have zero evidence to say God saves a person just so He can save a person.

 

[sawdust]

Eze 18:4 and 18: 18:32 are describing the requirements of the Old Covenant (OC). It was an earthly works-based covenant, by which, no one could/can ever become saved,

If no-one could be saved how is it that Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration?

You didn't deal with the election of the unsaved which is what my post was about. You dealt with judgement on sin.

Those who hold to God choosing who is saved and who is not saved on the basis of "His good pleasure" alone have a problem because He takes no pleasure in death.

Maybe you'll be honest enough to think about the dilemma.

 

[rogerg]

Another thing I really find interesting (not really), is how believers are held to a higher moral standard of conduct than the god of Canons of Dort.

If I understand your point correctly, they actually are held to a higher moral standard by God, but it occurs after becoming saved, not to become saved. Were it a requirement to become saved, then people would try to use it for that purpose, which would be an attempt to make salvation by their works instead of by grace, and thereby, would also corrupt that moral standard.
For those who have been saved, they are placed under greater moral scrutiny by God after salvation than are the unsaved. God does not spare the whip on His children should they do that which is not pleasing in His eyes - and He knows exactly what it is they dislike (in fact better than they do) and He will not hesitate to do exactly that to them with increasing intensity and frequency should they ignore Him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And I explained previously that Gen 3:21 doesn't tell the whole story. For one thing, the text doesn't say that A&E accepted God's provision by faith. The text only tells us what God provided for A&E; but it doesn't tell us how they responded.

they were both clothed ... neither of them rejected the coats.

However...there is strong evidence later in the narrative that Eve acknowledged God and recognized that He was ultimately responsible for her bearing children.

Eve said ... "I have gotten a man from the LORD" (Gen 4:1) ... concerning Cain ... you know, the one who rejected God when God reached out to him ... then went out and murdered his brother, Abel. Such great spiritual wisdom from your revered Eve.

Plus Eve is called "the mother of all the living".

by the guy you believe is the spawn of satan ...

I explained the meaning of the term "mother of all living" more than a month ago:

The word "living" in Gen 3:20 refers to all descendants of Adam and Eve. The seed of Adam fertilized the ovum of Eve and the results were the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. Each successive generation after Adam and Eve results from the seed of the father fertilizing the ovum of the mother resulting in son(s) or daughter(s).

In our day and time, when a person is born again, he or she is still physically the son or daughter of his or her father and mother, but spiritually he or she is a child of God ... the born again one is not a child of Eve as you insist is the meaning in Gen 3:15.

Bottom line: You are assuming that both A&E responded in faith,

Bottom line: you are assuming they didn't.

whereas the post-Fall account provides strong evidence of faith by Eve only!

nope.

Good job at eisegesis!

that's your area of Scriptural interpretation.

I mean...Christ covered the sins of the entire world, right? He atoned for the sins of all mankind w/o exception, right? So...going by your logic and how you interpret v. 3:21 and carrying your logic over to the Cross then this must mean that the entire world is saved -- just like the entire world (A&E) was saved in Gen 3:21 ( cf. Jn 3:17).

John 3:17-18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Moreover, your interpretation of Gen 3:21 doesn't make sense in light of Gen 3:22-24 whereby God drove his enemy out from his Holy Presence.

The only "enemy" of God in Genesis 3 is satan.

You will never find in scripture where the Heb term "garash" (Strong's 1644) is ever referred to in the context of God's redeemed people. The term is most frequently used in the context of God driving out his enemies, or the enemies of His chosen people, or God' enemies driving out His people from their presence. (See my 8076 from yesterday!) It makes no sense that God would drive out his friend Adam (who you are assuming was also reconciled to God). That would set quite a precedent in scripture. And I don't formulate doctrine on a single precedent.

Is it your claim that Eve remained in Eden ? ... that Eve was not driven out ?

As far as Adam and Eve being driven out of (evicted from) Eden, God tells us why in the very same verse (and it's not because they were considered "enemies" by God) ...

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It's very telling how so many FWers here squawk at my questions.

my "squawking" has to do with your suggestion that God's covenant with Abraham should be "flushed down a sewer".

My reply was appropriate. You should have previewed your post before you submitted it ... and you should have removed any hint or suggestion that God's covenant is sewage.

I guess you've never noticed how often Jesus asked questions to both his disciples and to his detractors!

Did Jesus ever hint that any of God's covenants should be "flushed down a sewer"?

And where would civilization be today if it weren't for critical thinking people asking good questions that motivated them or others to search for answers?

If you want to be considered as one of the "critical thinking people asking good questions" then quit suggesting that God's covenant should be "flushed down a sewer".

Do you think the gazillions of inventions in this world came about without people first asking good questions?

What "gazillions" of ideas have you had that should not be "flushed down a sewer"?
.

 

[BillyBob]

Wrong. The offer is ALWAYS legitimate.
It BECOMES a matter of certain judgement ONLY if you reject.

[Luk 20:17-18 KJV] 17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken (repentance); but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (judgement).

You are correct, the offer is legitimate! However, how many times have you seen the call go out, only to be pushed aside as foolishness?
If the Spirit is not at work in the non-believer, that is exactly what happens. THE SPIRIT IS GOD!

 

[HeIsHere]

You are correct, the offer is legitimate! However, how many times have you seen the call go out, only to be pushed aside as foolishness?
If the Spirit is not at work in the non-believer, that is exactly what happens. THE SPIRIT IS GOD!

The love of god only for some.

 

[BillyBob]

The love of god only for some.

Call it forced, unfair or whatever you wish! – I call it a gift beyond measure.

Your view requires an act by man, the reformed view requires an act of God.

 

[Rufus]

I understand the Greek which outranks your personal beliefs.

And I understand the Rules of Interpretation which "outranks your personal" theology which you impose upon the text. May God have mercy on your soul for shamelessly and wantonly adding to his Holy Word, which is strictly forbidden in scripture.

 

[Rufus]

1 Corinthians 15:22... all died in Adam. All being the entirety of mankind.
1 Corinthians 15:22...so in Christ, all will be made alive. All being those in Christ.

This verse tells us that all died in Adam, not just many. The many in the 3 verses I gave don't mean all. They mean some. I recognize that this plays havoc with your belief that God is equal opportunity and must make salvation available to all, but to simply ignore what those verses teach is unwise.

FWers are powerful dudes and dudesses. All they have to do is wave their magic "freewill" wand over the term "many" and it magically turns the term into all in the distributive sense. Easy peasy for them....

 

[Rufus]

Oh Dear!

It is in such poor taste.

Do you know that all unbelievers are children of hell?

 

[lrs68]

And I understand the Rules of Interpretation which "outranks your personal" theology which you impose upon the text. May God have mercy on your soul for shamelessly and wantonly adding to his Holy Word, which is strictly forbidden in scripture.

I truly doubt that seeing how in several places like Romans 8:29-30 Paul speaks about the Israelites and he himself was once and still was an Israelite and spoke about it in the first few Verses of Ephesians 1.

But you are so far off thinking it's about us

The "us" included in Ephesians are the people Paul would have understood to fit the descriptions he gave in his letter, namely those described in [Deut 7:6][1 Chr 16:13-15] & [Rom 9:4] -- neither more nor less.

Ancient Hebrew Israelites

Romans 9:
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Cameron143]

FWers are powerful dudes and dudesses. All they have to do is wave their magic "freewill" wand over the term "many" and it magically turns the term into all in the distributive sense. Easy peasy for them....

All means All.
Many means All.
Source: Freewill Dictionary

 

[Genez]

1 Corinthians 15:22... all died in Adam. All being the entirety of mankind.
1 Corinthians 15:22...so in Christ, all will be made alive. All being those in Christ.

This verse tells us that all died in Adam, not just many. The many in the 3 verses I gave don't mean all. They mean some. I recognize that this plays havoc with your belief that God is equal opportunity and must make salvation available to all, but to simply ignore what those verses teach is unwise.

Why would God not make salvation available to all?
When he died for all.
I said... 'available.'

Is salvation based upon human merit, which none of us have?

If your God is the way you make him to be?
He must get drunk a lot.
For he has limited funds and can take on only so many.

“For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14​

​

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; ​

those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30​

That means?

Many are saved, but few are chosen.
For, the ones he calls are justified and glorified - saved ones.

How can all of the many saved not all be chosen then?

Go ahead hot shot. Show us your stuff.

 

[Rufus]

Foreknowledge does not apply to unbelievers.

You don't read too swell, do you?

Acts 2:22-23
22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
ESV

And,

Acts 4:27-29
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

You must believe that Jesus was murdered by believers?

 

[Cameron143]

Why would God not make salvation available to all?
When he died for all.
I said... 'available.'

Is salvation based upon human merit, which none of us have?

If your God is the way you make him to be?
He must get drunk a lot.
For he has limited funds and can take on only so many.

“For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14​

​

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; ​

those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30​

That means?

Many are saved, but few are chosen.
For, the ones he calls are justified and glorified - saved ones.

How can all of the many saved not all be chosen then?

Go ahead hot shot. Show us your stuff.

You begin with a couple of false premises. First, the verses I shared teach that Jesus didn't bear in His body the sins of all humanity. So your first premise is false. Second, God's ability isn't hampered in any way. Just because He doesn't exercise His power doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A second false premise. Third, characterizing my understanding falsely weakens your arguments and is unnecessary.
The short answer to your final question is that those verses are speaking of 2 separate groups. Romans 8 according to verse 28 are the called. These are those God foreknew. They are those who are chosen. They come to God and are conformed to the image of Christ. Those in Matthew 22 were bid and did not respond to the call. They obviously weren't amongst the group of Romans 8.

 

[Rufus]

Why would God not make salvation available to all?
When he died for all.
I said... 'available.'

Is salvation based upon human merit, which none of us have?

If your God is the way you make him to be?
He must get drunk a lot.
For he has limited funds and can take on only so many.

“For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14​

​

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; ​

those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30​

That means?

Many are saved, but few are chosen.
For, the ones he calls are justified and glorified - saved ones.

How can all of the many saved not all be chosen then?

Go ahead hot shot. Show us your stuff.

Great example of circular reasoning. Jesus laid down his life for His chosen covenant people. God never made a redemptive covenant with the entire world -- which explains why he didn't pray for the world in Jn 17. The New Covenant was made only with Abraham's descendants, i.e. elect Jewish and Gentiles who were predestined in eternity to believe and repent.