Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[BillyBob]

Why would God not make salvation available to all?

Is God somehow a debtor to any man? He saves those of His choosing!

 

[Magenta]

My understanding is that they ignore what God's word says because otherwise their entire doctrine falls apart. So how does one deal with such a belief? you can show them plain scriptures but if even that isn't enough then it is just a matter between them and God at that point

In a pubic forum it is never just a matter between them and God. There is an audience, and newcomers
to the thread all the time... people who come along and have no idea what the thread is about at all.

 

[Genez]

Is God somehow a debtor to any man? He saves those of His choosing!

The Cross was God's declaration of having taken full responsibility for the Fall of Man.

None of us had a choice in being born fallen.

 

[Rufus]

You begin with a couple of false premises. First, the verses I shared teach that Jesus didn't bear in His body the sins of all humanity. So your first premise is false. Second, God's ability isn't hampered in any way. Just because He doesn't exercise His power doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A second false premise. Third, characterizing my understanding falsely weakens your arguments and is unnecessary.
The short answer to your final question is that those verses are speaking of 2 separate groups. Romans 8 according to verse 28 are the called. These are those God foreknew. They are those who are chosen. They come to God and are conformed to the image of Christ. Those in Matthew 22 were bid and did not respond to the call. They obviously weren't amongst the group of Romans 8.

Don't know if you ever noticed this or not about the Parable of the Wedding Feast in Mat 22, but there is a seeming incongruity to the passage:

Matt 22:8-10
8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
NIV

Do you see it? Verse 9 says to go out and "invite" anyone you find. But v. 10 says that the servants responded to that command not with more verbal invitations, but rather they "gathered" all the people they could find. What the servants did far exceeded verbal invitations. This is reminiscent of the Parable of the Banquet in Lk 14 wherein the servant brought in or "compelled" the guests to attend.

 

[Blain]

In a pubic forum it is never just a matter between them and God. There is an audience, and newcomers
to the thread all the time... people who come along and have no idea what the thread is about at all.

Yes and this is also why we must take care of our conduct with each other because plenty of people see our posts some of them new believers. But of course no matter what you say if the other party is not willing to learn then all you can do is plant the seeds and leave it with God.

Of course this isn't to say that we ourselves cannot learn but it requires one to be willing to drop what they thought they knew in order to know the truth
But then what is truth? we have the truth we have his word and yet look at all the diversity and debating over simple concepts

 

[Rufus]

The Cross was God's declaration of having taken full responsibility for the Fall of Man.

None of us had a choice in being born fallen.

Wow, Folks! How is that for a blasphemous accusation against a thrice holy God!? When he said "taken full responsibility", I take that to mean that God ultimately caused (forced) Adam to sin. It's no wonder at all that FWers are under the impression that God is indebted to give all sinners his grace -- which in itself is an oxymoronic concept.

Secondly, there are actually two declarative statements about the Cross of Christ. One says that the Cross demonstrates God's "justice/righteousness" (Rom 3:25-26), while the other declares that the Cross demonstrates God's love for HIS PEOPLE (Rom 5:8).

But there's not even a remote hint anywhere in scripture that says that God is morally responsible for the Fall.

 

[BillyBob]

Wow, Folks! How is that for a blasphemous accusation against a thrice holy God!? When he said "taken full responsibility", I take that to mean that God ultimately caused (forced) Adam to sin. It's no wonder at all that FWers are under the impression that God is indebted to give all sinners his grace -- which in itself is an oxymoronic concept.

Secondly, there are actually two declarative statements about the Cross of Christ. One says that the Cross demonstrates God's "justice/righteousness" (Rom 3:25-26), while the other declares that the Cross demonstrates God's love for HIS PEOPLE (Rom 5:8).

But there's not even a remote hint anywhere in scripture that says that God is morally responsible for the Fall.

Rom 9:15
They are having trouble getting over their GINF syndrome.

FYI - God Is Not Fair syndrome!

 

[Rufus]

Rom 9:15
They are having trouble getting over their GINF syndrome.

FYI - God Is Not Fair syndrome!

Maybe FWers think God died and left them in charge of the universe so that fallen, depraved mankind can get to decide what is fair, just and righteous.

 

[Genez]

Rom 9:15
They are having trouble getting over their GINF syndrome.

FYI - God Is Not Fair syndrome!

Can't have both.
Yet, there will always be a defense presented for the wrong side offered.

 

[cv5]

The Cross was God's declaration of having taken full responsibility for the Fall of Man.

None of us had a choice in being born fallen.

The first Adam took full responsibility for the sin of his wife Eve.....

@Rufus remains oblivious.....but yea. Definitely.

[Gen 3:12 KJV] 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

 

[Rufus]

The first Adam took full responsibility for the sin of his wife Eve.....

@Rufus remains oblivious.....but yea. Definitely.

[Gen 3:12 KJV] 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Was that before or after Adam threw Eve under the bus and also insulted God for giving her to him? Adam really set the template for a good marital relationship, didn't he?

 

[Magenta]

Yes and this is also why we must take care of our conduct with each other because plenty of people see our posts some of them new believers. But of course no matter what you say if the other party is not willing to learn then all you can do is plant the seeds and leave it with God.

Of course this isn't to say that we ourselves cannot learn but it requires one to be willing to drop what they thought they knew in order to know the truth
But then what is truth? we have the truth we have his word and yet look at all the diversity and debating over simple concepts

Jesus is Truth. I wonder what you are really trying to tell me, Blain. I am not here bickering with people
who do not listen, or the liars, of which there are many, and those who blaspheme God. These Pelagian
heretics can scream against God's sovereignty all they want, it is not going to change Him or the truth
that the Scriptures teach about man, which the heretics contradict and deny, and which I affirm.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[cv5]

Maybe FWers think God died and left them in charge of the universe so that fallen, depraved mankind can get to decide what is fair, just and righteous.

We all thank God that He did not leave it up to you.

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 14 v 6, Proverbs 29 v 1 ~ A mocker seeks wisdom and finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning. A man who remains stiff-necked after much reproof will suddenly be shattered beyond recovery.

 

[sawdust]

You don't read too swell, do you?

Acts 2:22-23
22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
ESV

And,

Acts 4:27-29
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

You must believe that Jesus was murdered by believers?

You think He died only for believers. Are you declaring yourself innocent of His death?

 

[sawdust]

Wow, Folks! How is that for a blasphemous accusation against a thrice holy God!? When he said "taken full responsibility", I take that to mean that God ultimately caused (forced) Adam to sin. It's no wonder at all that FWers are under the impression that God is indebted to give all sinners his grace -- which in itself is an oxymoronic concept.

Amazing. First you put your words into the mouth of what was not spoken, then accuse them of your wrong thinking.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

 

[Genez]

Wow, Folks! How is that for a blasphemous accusation against a thrice holy God!? When he said "taken full responsibility", I take that to mean that God ultimately caused (forced) Adam to sin.

No better than Calvinists like yourself who claim God caused you to believe.

 

[Kroogz]

Jesus is Truth. I wonder what you are really trying to tell me, Blain. I am not here bickering with people
who do not listen, or the liars, of which there are many, and those who blaspheme God. These Pelagian
heretics can scream against God's sovereignty all they want, it is not going to change Him or the truth
that the Scriptures teach about man, which the heretics contradict and deny, and which I affirm.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

There is not ONE "Pelagian heretic" On this forum. We are bad to the core sis.

But there is not ONE verse in His word that says," Man cannot believe His Gospel to be saved."

Study God for a bit. He is full of Grace and mercy.

Your bitterness comes from your infatuation with man and his faults and failures.

 

[HeIsHere]

From the Canons of Dort...

I wonder if one joins a Reformed Church if that increases the odds of winning the salvation lottery.

Article 10: Election Based on God’s Good Pleasure

But the cause of this undeserved election is exclusively the good pleasure of God. This does not involve God’s choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as God’s own possession. As Scripture says, “When the children were not yet born, and had done nothing either good or bad . . . , she (Rebecca) was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated’” (Rom. 9:11-13). Also, “All who were appointed for eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).

Link

 

[HeIsHere]

There is not ONE "Pelagian heretic" On this forum. We are bad to the core sis.

But there is not ONE verse in His word that says," Man cannot believe His Gospel to be saved."

Study God for a bit. He is full of Grace and mercy.

Your bitterness comes from your infatuation with man and his faults and failures.

I was reading through the Canon's of Dort

as one of my sons would say "that is messed up!

I cannot even believe it is accepted within the Christian tradition.