Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Everlasting-Grace]

Exactly right, brother! The chosen people of God receive exactly what they deserve based solely on the merits of their Federal Head, i.e. the Last Adam! And the non-elect receive what they fully deserve -- eternal punishment for Adam's sin and their own personal sins.

so God put some above others?

what makes you so special?

and what makes them so unworthy. why are you better than them?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

@Roughsoul1991
Free willers essentially claim the flesh can bring forth the good fruit of faith.... they have the man of the flesh,
Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)

Another lie.

sister if you can not understand what people actually believe, back out. Because your continues bearing of false witness is getting old

We do not believe we can do this of the flesh (of self) we believe we do it because God worked in us.

he gets the credit not us.

 

[fredoheaven]

This advances the discussion re: belief vs. faith that I earlier flagged @sawdust @HeIsHere @cv5 @Hakawaka about. IMO it would be a good discussion to continue.

First, a question due to the way these threads go: What theological tradition do you hold to, if any? Is it Reformed?

Next, a few comments and questions:

1. In Eph2:8 there is substantial debate re: "faith" being part of the gift. Based upon the grammar, many do not interpret faith being the gift, but the gift being the entire phrase paraphrased, "salvation by grace through faith." Your thoughts?
2. Under pisteuō you're including this "God's inbirthing of faith" concept apart from really proving it. In your description you seem to be saying since the second use of pisteuō is translated as "believe" it means "used of persuading oneself (= human believing)" - so people are persuading themselves about God's existence and being a rewarder? Is this what you're saying?

A few questions to others (and please correct me if I've misunderstood):

1. @sawdust you seem to be saying, as does the above, that belief and faith are not the same. Can you elaborate?
2. @HeIsHere I think you said pistis is belief/faith, so they are the same. Correct?
3. @cv5 any thoughts?
4. @Hakawaka any thoughts or were you mainly bringing up and supporting synergism?
5. Anybody else?

I would say that salvation here is the charism and not faith. Faith is best described as a means or instrumentality by which we received the salvation. Thanks

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He who believes is not condemned,

he who does not obey (does not believe) is condemned already. because they have not believed.

in the end God is glorified. He paid their way in, they rejected the offer..

right ... I do not hold to the thought that belief or unbelief on the part of mankind somehow affects the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign over all and He is the One who tells us to believe Him. If I believe, how does that in any way, shape, or form affect the sovereignty of God? If I do not believe ... same question. God is sovereign whether I believe or do not believe.
.

 

[fredoheaven]

LOVED the comment, you get a hug too. More detailed reply soon friend, playing chess online as well.

Online chess?@ chess.com?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Thanks. I studied myself in Spirit, then asked for and received teaching, then went back to self-study after seminary.

What tradition, if any, seems to you to best complement how the Bible reads?



You'd have to elaborate here for me to better understand you. When you say "the meaning of the word" do you mean the definition of pistis itself or the meaning you think Scripture gives it? Either way, would you provide some reference link or Scripture(s) to show this?



I too see the persuasion language and concept in Scripture and in the root of pistis and pisteuo as I understand you suggesting (and please do correct me if I've misunderstood you somewhere) persuasion.

I understand your statement about Jesus and the cross. I see belief in Jesus according to Paul (and others) foundationally as believing and submitting to and understanding the reality that Jesus is YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ.

I in part agree with your comment about legalistic (I'd also add or clarify by saying "works").

I agree with your last sentence.

What tradition? Honestly, I find truth and error in most of them. Which is why I believe the church has such a problem with unity is that we become dogmatic in the doctrines of traditions when even the early church fathers didn't hold the same beliefs on theology.

Now I can say I hold to the textual criticism approach where I rely more on the older manuscripts and I utilize many different hermeneutical practices that guide interpretation.

As to the meaning of the word I would say, the context provides the meaning. The definition of the word is helpful but one word often carries multiple meanings and context is typically what gives the word its meaning. That and of course author's intent and cultural understanding.

Example,

Galatians 5:22
English Standard Version
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Pistis: faithfulness
We understand from context that these are gifts of the Spirit and nothing we can obtain of our own will.

I think we are in agreement with everything else.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

right ... I do not hold to the thought that belief or unbelief on the part of mankind somehow affects the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign over all and He is the One who tells us to believe Him. If I believe, how does that in any way, shape, or form affect the sovereignty of God? If I do not believe ... same question. God is sovereign whether I believe or do not believe.
.

A sovereign God can do whatever he wants.

when you limit his sovereignty, you as much as limit God

 

[fredoheaven]

Exactly right, brother! The chosen people of God receive exactly what they deserve based solely on the merits of their Federal Head, i.e. the Last Adam! And the non-elect receive what they fully deserve -- eternal punishment for Adam's sin and their own personal sins.

Thanking God because I received his mercy through faith. Titus 3:5

 

[BillyBob]

Are you speaking for @Cameron143 ?

"never' is a big word, and "fair" has several core meanings and additional connotations.

You're picking up more and more bad habits around here as you turn from goofy cartoon character to warrior cartoon character, e.g. "Try reading his word".

You are correct, I replied to your post to Cameron. My bad.....

 

[Cameron143]

So God is not fair. he is evil

Got it

was the gospel sent to Canaan, causing Abraham and Israel to be tied up in Israel for 400 years.

Yes the gospel was sent to ninevah, even thouigh they were deep in sin.. why? God knew they would repent.

I have spoken to missionaries who say the same thing, they went to these places no one had ever been before. and were received with Joy, some of them being told God said he would send someone. Like he did Saul??

I didn't say God was evil. This is a response from someone who hasn't really considered the subject fully. I suspect this is because it would mean it doesn't fit with your idea of who God actually is. And while God did know Ninevah would repent, that isn't the reason God gave for sparing them.
Your story about missionaries is wonderful, but many missionaries have met with death, and others served long on the mission field with little in the way of results. So your story is not emblematic of what happens on the mission field. Did God not know that for others there would be little in the way of results?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

This passage has proved quite perplexing to me. But, presented in the context of your expository discourse, the meaning of this verse seems a bit clearer that no man is capable of judging him because they lack the spiritual insight needed to judge rightly, except those given that mystery and those are aware that 'there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.'

I see it in light of the "no man" being an unbeliever or a young believer or a carnal Christian and not being equipped to assess those who are spiritually mature (he that is spiritual).

example ... my brother in law is a self-confessed atheist and we actually have some really great discussions concerning Scripture. In one discussion we were talking about the fruit of the spirit joy ... which he equated with "happiness" and inferred that the happiness he experienced in life was the same as fruit of the spirit joy. I told him happiness is not the same as joy and there was no way for him to know that because he is not born again of Holy Spirit and joy is part of the Holy Spirit within the born again one ... he agreed that he did not understand there was a difference.

The spiritually mature believer can assess the unbeliever, young believer, carnal Christian because he or she was once in the same boat. The spiritually mature believer is to be gracious to and patient with the unbeliever, young believer, carnal Christian because when the spiritually mature believer was in that state, others more mature were patient and gracious to him or her.

We can carry the above example concerning my brother in law to the discussion concerning the gospel of Christ and the hidden wisdom. Until there is an understanding that what is discussed in 1 Cor 2:6-16 goes beyond the scope of the gospel, we're going to believe that the gospel cannot be received and/or believed by the unbeliever ... such a tragic belief if one does not comprehend the difference between the gospel and the hidden wisdom ... just sayin' ...
.

 

[Magenta]

Oh absolutely a total depraved state. But I guess where we may disagree is I simply believe after God moved first to draw all unto Himself, my mind goes to the contradiction.

If God draws all but not all are saved then what prevents their salvation? God the all-sovereign one or man who rejected God's work within them?

1 Timothy 2:4, which states that God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

If God desires all, then all should be saved if free will were absent.

If God draws all... well, God may be drawing all but which ones does He actually give to Jesus? Those are the ones said to come. There is no, if they choose to. It is simply stated that they do. God desires all to be saved and could do that, no question. But that does not mean that man is free to choose while in his unregenerated state. Scripture teaches that man is a slave to either sin or righteousness. Men make choices from their nature. The unregenerated refuse to come into the light. They are opposed to the spiritual things of God, hostile in their minds toward Him, enemies. Scripture says so! There are none good and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Jesus said so! We are to put no confidence in the flesh. How can a person without the indweling of the Holy Spirit of God choose anything from other than the flesh? That is his natural state. But the free will crowd ascribes to the unregenerated man qualities and abilities that are true only of the spiritual, regenerated man. The Bible says, the flesh brings forth fruit unto death. The free willer believes, the flesh brings forth fruit unto life.

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

A few questions to others (and please correct me if I've misunderstood):

1. @sawdust you seem to be saying, as does the above, that belief and faith are not the same. Can you elaborate?
2. @HeIsHere I think you said pistis is belief/faith, so they are the same. Correct?
3. @cv5 any thoughts?
4. @Hakawaka any thoughts or were you mainly bringing up and supporting synergism?
5. Anybody else?

I believe everyone has faith (noun) and faith (noun) results in believing (verb). Just as everyone has intellect (noun) which results in thinking (verb).

When truth is revealed to "whosoever" and "whosoever" believes that truth, God then works within "whosoever" to increase faith concerning that truth.

Even unbelievers believe some of God's truth (example: most people believe that murder is wrong ... same with stealing ... lying ... etc., etc.). So an unbeliever may believe truth recorded in Scripture, and also remain without eternal life.

imo ... the issue is not "do you have faith" ... the issue is "in Whom do you place your faith".

If we place our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ... in God and His promises ... we receive the blessings He has promised.

If we place our faith in anything or anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ ... we receive the consequence of rejecting Him.

I also believe faith is reliable. Faith is more reliable than what we are able to discern with our five senses, our intellect, our emotions.

We observe the glory of God in His creation. That draws us to Him and causes us to want to know Him more. We seek Him out and He reveals Himself to those who seek Him.

Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Also, He has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. That is what God has chosen. We observe His glory in creation and we are interested and want to know more about the Creator. We seek Him. Inevitably God will send someone across the path of those who are hungering and thirsting after righteousness ... someone who will speak the truth of the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

just some thoughts ... apologies if somewhat rambling ...
.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Oh absolutely a total depraved state. But I guess where we may disagree is I simply believe after God moved first to draw all unto Himself, my mind goes to the contradiction.

If God draws all but not all are saved then what prevents their salvation? God the all-sovereign one or man who rejected God's work within them?

1 Timothy 2:4, which states that God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

If God desires all, then all should be saved if free will were absent.

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Most of the Bible’s doctrine would be nonsensical if we have no choice between good and evil and things like God being a rewarder of those who seek him

 

[GWH]

God's Justice is an integral part of His divine nature.

Yes, and it is indicated by the truth that God does not show favoritism.

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly,
so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

TOP #19: On Judgment Day God will enforce just punishment via souls reaping what they have sown or done. [Rom. 2:5-6, cf. TOP #83 & #141] Punishment is just because God does not show favoritism (TOP #22). This truth is akin to karma (Gal. 6:7-9).

TOP #22: For Jews, obeying the Mosaic Law will serve as the basis of divine judgment. [RM 2:9-13&16] Verse 11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

TOP #178: Masters or bosses should treat their slaves or employees the way Christ would. [Eph 6:9, Col. 4:1] Christ/God is the Master of both without favoring either.

TOP #221: God is just. [2Thes. 1:6, Heb. 6:10] The second verse says that God is not unjust, Eph. 6:9 defines justness as not showing favoritism and Rom. 3:25-26 says that God demonstrates his justice.

 

[sawdust]

And the argument with myself goes on until my carnal urge to steal is brought under control.

I agree with what you said except I would add on the end of the above statement .. "or not". There is no guarantee you will bring that urge under control when walking after the flesh as your desire may well exceed your will.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I agree with what you said except I would add on the end of the above statement .. "or not". There is no guarantee you will bring that urge under control when walking after the flesh as your desire may well exceed your will.

yeah ... good point ... I actually thought about that at the time ... which then led me to James 1:12-15 ... I thought I'd just leave off going into that ... believe me, sawdust, I can go on and on and on (which I'm sure everyone who has posted in this thread has noticed!!!)
.

 

[studier]

1 Timothy 2:4, which states that God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

If God desires all, then all should be saved if free will were absent.

Just repeating a good statement.

 

[studier]

I would say that salvation here is the charism and not faith. Faith is best described as a means or instrumentality by which we received the salvation. Thanks

That best matches the parsed grammar. Thanks!

 

[studier]

What tradition? Honestly, I find truth and error in most of them. Which is why I believe the church has such a problem with unity is that we become dogmatic in the doctrines of traditions when even the early church fathers didn't hold the same beliefs on theology.

Now I can say I hold to the textual criticism approach where I rely more on the older manuscripts and I utilize many different hermeneutical practices that guide interpretation.

As to the meaning of the word I would say, the context provides the meaning. The definition of the word is helpful but one word often carries multiple meanings and context is typically what gives the word its meaning. That and of course author's intent and cultural understanding.

Example,

Galatians 5:22
English Standard Version
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Pistis: faithfulness
We understand from context that these are gifts of the Spirit and nothing we can obtain of our own will.

I think we are in agreement with everything else.

Per paragraph:
Agree
Agree
Agree
Faithfulness is an interesting definition especially considered in the discussions concerning the pistis [of] Jesus Christ language.

Sorry about all the questions about traditions. These threads are of mainly one aggressive tradition, and I've decided to try to cut through some of it as best I can. Thanks for answering.