Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

God calls us to make a choice to either believe or reject Him. He doesn't force conversion. It would
be a lie of Jesus and the Apostles who called for people to believe, if in fact they had no choice.

None could keep the commandments perfectly. And in fact Scripture explicitly states that the man of flesh
is incapable of submitting to God's law. If this were not so, why in the world was Jesus even required? God
knew before He even made man than man was going to sin. The man of flesh is the one who is as yet
unregenerate, also known as the natural man. He is a lover of darkness and slave to sin who suppresses
the truth in unrighteousness, able to neither receive/accept nor comprehend the spiritual things of God.

Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So true, 1 Cor. 2:14 talks about the deep things about God and his word. Nothing to do with the gospel.

right ...

God never hid the gospel ... it is revealed in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

On the other hand, 2 Cor 2:7 speaks of the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom ... which goes beyond the scope of the gospel.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Eph 3:3-5 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:9-10 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints

Clearly this wisdom of God in a mystery ... the hidden wisdom was hid in God from the foundation of the world and is separate and distinct from the gospel of Christ which was never hid in God.

And if the response to the above is 2 Cor 4:3-4 ... well, the verses in 2 Cor 4:3-5 tell us that it is satan who blinds the minds of those who do not believe ... not God. So when someone responds with 2 Cor 4:3-4 to this issue concerning the mystery, they've got God working with satan ... which, to me, is abomination and borders on blasphemy ... again, that's just me ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

It is only a part of the Christian life if we fail to be led of the Spirit otherwise, there is no struggle. It does take awhile to learn how to walk according to the Spirit so usually our early walk, just like a baby/toddler, looks pretty shaky but that is why we persevere. But, if one is walking after the Spirit, you will not see Romans 7 active within one's life instead it will be Romans 8:1-2 . Freedom all the way, Hallelujah!

I have tried to explain the difference between walking according to the new man (Spirit) and walking according to the old man (flesh) ... here's how I have explained it:

Say I was a thief before I was born again. So, now I'm a believer and I walk by a jewelry store and notice a very nice piece of jewelry which I would love to have but I can't afford it:

living in light of who I was in Adam (old man):

oohhh, I'd really like to have that ... argue with myself ... God commands us not to steal ... but I want it ... no, I'm a believer now and I am not going to steal ... man, I sure would like it though, it'd be so easy to just steal it ... no, no, no, don't do it.​

​

And the argument with myself goes on until my carnal urge to steal is brought under control.​

living in light of who I am in the Lord Jesus Christ (new man):

what a beautiful piece of jewelry and keep on keeping on ... stealing the piece does not even enter into my mind because the new man is after Christ and the mind is renewed, proving what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.​

​

There is no struggle against the old man ... the old sin nature ... because new man was created (and walks) in righteousness and true holiness.​

​

In both the above examples, I do not sin by stealing the piece of jewelry. However, in the first example, there's quite a struggle going on. When we live according to who we are in the Lord Jesus Christ, we are free from the allure of sin ... such a blessed and peace-filled state in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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[Magenta]

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the outcome is eternal life. 2 Corinthians 3 verse 17; Galatians 5 verse 1; Romans 8 verse 2; from Romans 6 verse 22

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He is a lover of darkness and slave to sin who suppresses
the truth in unrighteousness, able to neither receive/accept nor comprehend the spiritual things of God.

to remove Rom 1:16-17 from what follows in Rom 1:18 is telling only one side of what is written in Scripture ...

Romans 1:16-18 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

when the gospel of Christ is presented and believed, salvation is the result ... because the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom 1:16-17).

when the gospel of Christ is presented and the truth is suppressed, salvation is not the result ... the consequence of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness is laid out in Rom 1:18-32.
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[Magenta]

So true, 1 Cor. 2:14 talks about the deep things about God and his word. Nothing to do with the gospel.

1 Cor 2:14 says nothing of what you claim. It says what it says. Oh, I get it. You need to re-write it. I won't ask why.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[Magenta]

1 Timothy 3 verse 16 ~ By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.
Apparently the common confession concerning the mystery of godliness does not apply to FWers.

 

[HeIsHere]

So true, 1 Cor. 2:14 talks about the deep things about God and his word. Nothing to do with the gospel.

Obviously true, not at all about the Gospel.

 

[HeIsHere]

to remove Rom 1:16-17 from what follows in Rom 1:18 is telling only one side of what is written in Scripture ...

Romans 1:16-18 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

when the gospel of Christ is presented and believed, salvation is the result ... because the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom 1:16-17).

when the gospel of Christ is presented and the truth is suppressed, salvation is not the result ... the consequence of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness is laid out in Rom 1:18-32.
.

Been here a million and one times, just sayin.

 

[Magenta]

Obviously true, not at all about the Gospel.

The number of Scriptures you have to deny to cling to your vain man exalting theology is is really astounding. Tell us the gospel is not foolishness to those who are lost.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Been here a million and one times, just sayin.

I know ... I get tired of folks just putting blinders on when it comes to what God reveals concerning the gospel being presented and one either believes and receives blessing or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and receives the consequence ... somewhat astounding when you think about who does what in those verses.


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[HeIsHere]

I know ... I get tired of folks just putting blinders on when it comes to what God reveals concerning the gospel being presented and one either believes and receives blessing or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and receives the consequence ... somewhat astounding when you think about who does what in those verses.


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I hear ya about the blinders, sometimes we are reinvigorated, perhaps fueled by a different approach, only to find out it is still the same ole, same ole.

It is astounding, it makes no sense to me, it is on its face pure nonsense to think the Gospel is in view in Corinthians when Paul is writing to believers.

 

[Mem]

Reading the work of others is never a bad thing. You may disagree and that is OK. But, it can also lead to a more complete understanding.

Sometimes I wonder if a blogger I frequently read isn't a member here or if he might read through the threads especially today since he touched briefly about what he called learning about Jesus 'secondhand.' Salvation is an individual not a group event, and the work of others, although often helpful to some degree, only provides insight into their person experiences and opinions.

It is said of witnesses that if everyone story is exactly the same, then it's safe to assume that they've all corroborated a lie. Realistically, if each person of any particular group provides their own accounts, you should find various idiosyncrasies within each member as no one 'sees' exactly the same as the other. This is true among the rabbinical schools of thought as well as any other religion as much as it is among the various Christian schools of thought. One offered something along the thought that, when it comes time to stand before God, no one is going to hear God ask, "Why were you not more like Moses," but will hear "Why were you not more like (insert your own name here)" in the sense that God creates everyone by design to be exactly as he intended.

I didn't take this lesson as meaning that everyone should 'do their own thing' but that God created Adam all by himself with no one else in mind other than Himself (but of course notwithstanding that "man" is created with "us" in mind and created He them, in the beginning, etc.) if anyone should know the meaning of the Name of God to be "ever-present" I'd think that a rabbi privy to the meaning of YHWH would be aware that God isn't any sort of a historical figure that can only be known 'secondhand' through historical writings.

So, I think this idea is underpinned in @Everlasting-Grace 's nitpicking. But that is my opinion because I might just be seeing it through my view of considering others' writings always with a consumer advisory in the background that that I am reading the view of an image other than mine (but most of all, other than God Himself Who never errs and Whose Grace is unmatched as is His perfection).

And I think this is not all I wanted to add to the commentary on this thread, but I've exceeded my five-sentence paragraph policy and have written an entire five-paragraph page.....

 

[Magenta]

I hear ya about the blinders, sometimes we are reinvigorated, perhaps fueled by a different approach, only to find out it is still the same ole, same ole.

It is astounding, it makes no sense to me, it is on its face pure nonsense to think the Gospel is in view in Corinthians when Paul is writing to believers.

Because believers never ever ever talk about what is true of non-believers? And Paul never did? Psshhhh.
He never mentioned what he was like as an unbeliever? Never said anything about them being blinded,
under the power and influence of the devil? Gosh. Who then said all those thing, about children of wrath,
of being once like them, a lot was said in that regard. An awful lot. Are you really trying to tell us it was not Paul???

From: John 8 verse 34; 2 Peter 2 verse 19a; Galatians 4 verse 8; Romans 7 verse 14; Ephesians 2 verse 3b; Romans 6 v 6 ~ “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.” They are slaves of corruption. When you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. You were of the flesh, sold under sin. We were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Our old self was crucified so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 5 verse 12 Ephesians 2 verse 3 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. We were by nature children of wrath.
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[Magenta]

Free willers deny this. They say the flesh can bring forth the good fruit of faith.

Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)

 

[Magenta]

The gospel is foolishness to the natural man, since he can neither accept nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. It is impossible for his incurably wicked heart to grow the seed of God’s Word into the good fruit of faith while he is captive to the will of the devil. Along with the rest of the world who does not know God, he is blinded to the truth and under the power and influence of Satan, rendered incapable of submitting to or obeying God, with Whom he is inherently hostile toward in his mind, for he craves what is contrary to the Spirit. He suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, refusing to come into the light because he is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, and his deeds are evil.

 

[Mem]

I'm not confused by what you're saying. I get what both of you are saying.

Usually, the present tense is not used to speak of the past as you are suggesting it, which is what @Everlasting-Grace is getting at.

What I've provided is a form of Greek that does use the present to speak of the past. One such parsing is actually called the "historic present" and it's used stylistically for various purposes some of which I've stated. So, rather than saying I was living such and such, the writer put's himself there in the past with this form of present tense and says as if living and taking us through the historical experience, I'm living such and such, to create a more vivid picture or other things he is trying to make clear. One of the things it can do is draw the reader or the hearer in to share the experience and make it more personal where the audience shares with Paul and puts themselves right there going through the same experience with him.

With this said, I disagree with both of you but in a way see what both of you are saying in the greater context of Rom6-8.

And to a large degree I agree with your second paragraph with one clarification. Even when "led of the Spirit" we will encounter the flesh asserting itself which brings us to a decision to continue our Spiritual Walk. As you've stated it's much more difficult in our Spiritual youth. Then as we mature it becomes much more natural (new nature) to be walking in Spirit and ignoring and even denying the flesh. Part of this is in the language of Heb5 where it speaks of "gymnazo" in becoming mature and well-exercised in discerning both good and bad.

I thought to offer Paul speaking with the future in mind and found it especially interesting when you said, "With this said, I disagree with both of you..." and wonder if you have a similar view or are offering an entirely different perspective.

As I view it, Paul knows he's better than he used to be but knows he's not there yet. His struggle seems to me more with his (natural) tendencies to look at and judge himself and the influence that has on his state of abiding in Christ. IOW, Paul has a tendency to beat himself up for not being perfect (considering his pride in his former (delusion of) perfection) so must continually 'rise up again' and 'live' (abide) in Christ's unfailing strength, ability, and faith to keep (abide in) him from falling (and I'm not quite convinced that Paul's concern is about falling into sin as much as his concern is about falling into unbelief because of sin. Thus, he continually reminds himself that Christ can be trusted to justify the ungodly (Romans4:5).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I hear ya about the blinders, sometimes we are reinvigorated, perhaps fueled by a different approach, only to find out it is still the same ole, same ole.

It is astounding, it makes no sense to me, it is on its face pure nonsense to think the Gospel is in view in Corinthians when Paul is writing to believers.

Paul said he taught the gospel to the church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Paul taught Jesus Christ and Him crucified ... which is basically the gospel. I believe this was taught in the general congregation.

The preaching of the gospel is needful for growth and maturity. And I believe no matter what level of maturity the believer finds him or herself, we should all desire the sincere milk of the Word that we may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2).


Paul also said he taught some believers who were more spiritually mature:

1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [Greek = teleios = of full age]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

These verses speak of spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.


Paul then talks about the carnal believers and what he taught to them:

1 Corinthians 3:1-4

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul could not discuss the more spiritual matters with the carnal believers in the church at Corinth ...

Clearly Paul fed the less mature believers and the carnal believers the milk of the Word ... the gospel of Christ.

Clearly Paul fed the more mature believers the meat of the Word ... those matters discussed in 1 Cor 2:6-16 which go beyond the scope of the gospel and/or the milk of the Word.

To equate the gospel of Christ with the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom is improper. Belief in the gospel of Christ is the first step on the path to more and more insight into those things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him ... the deep things of God.
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[Magenta]

What is the Federal Head of God's elect: Chopped Liver! Wasn't He the sinless one!?

Moreover, you should try really hard to cultivate the habit of LISTENING to YOURSELF before you post embarrassing drivel! In your hypothetical, explain to me why God would need to save anyone who has not sinned? From what precisely do they need to be saved?

According to some of our free will crowd, only atheists qualify as not being good..