Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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rogerg said:
Don't agree with me. That is NOT what I said in my prior post to you, and please don't try to hijack my statements for your own purposes.
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So you disagree with Jesus being the Plan before the foundation of the world by God to bring Salvation?
 
cv5 said:
If that is some kind of attempt at denying the undeniable, deflection or another bafflegab smokescreen.....it did not work.

BTW, God created everything "good" to begin with. And fit for eternal bliss.

God never creates something evil and fit for eternal damnation.

However those who CHOOSE to depart from the Living God, do not CHOOSE to "receive Him" when He calls.....suffer the inevitable consequences. And God is never liable for those wrong CHOICES.

Jesus came to save. And some are not willing to accomodate Him. Simple as that

[Mat 10:13-15 KJV]
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
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You once again display your willful ignorance of the scriptures. You just can't help yourself, can you?

Prov 16:4
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil .
KJV

And,

Rom 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
NIV
 
Rufus said:
I'm making my interpretation based on WHO the object of the verb "chose" is. And Christ is not that object. In fact, He isn't even the subject!

And how ironic that you complain about me "making it about man", when after I beamed up several passages that teach that man's ways are not in himself, you responded that the generic terms "man" or "man's = the saved. Why don't you just own the truth about yourself already and admit that you don't like God's thoughts or ways very much because your thoughts and your ways are so much better and higher than His?
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God made a plan to save people. He made it before the foundation of the world. Is that Plan Jesus or man?
 
lrs68 said:
So you disagree with Jesus being the Plan before the foundation of the world by God to bring Salvation?
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You disagree that God's chosen people are also an integral part of that Plan! Jesus has his role and the elect have theirs in the Plan!
 
Rufus said:
FWers refuse to understand that election is also a two-sided coin. Since God chose his elect in Christ before the beginning of time, then this immediately infers that He did not choose the non-elect to be in Jesus.
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That is not the issue at all for me.
 
Magenta said:
Cue the screeching against God's sovereignty... for His good pleasure... according to His purpose.
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God sovereignly allowed you to believe your error, so that those who are truly willing to grow in grace and knowledge, would benefit from what your stand will produce in those whom the Spirit is able to guide into all truth.
 
Genez said:

He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours,
but also for those of the whole world." 1 John 2:2



That tells you and everyone here, what?

​
I wonder what your real problem is.

One more time!


He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours,
but also for those of the whole world." 1 John 2:2


It does not say....



He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours,
but also for all those believers yet to be born." 1 John 2:2




.​
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It means you don't understand the verse. Jesus can't both bear the sins for all of humanity and only some. Hebrews 9:28 clearly teaches it is for some. Additionally, Matthew 20:28 states that Jesus gave His life a ransom for many, and not all. Still further, Matthew 26:28 says Jesus blood was shed for many for the remission of sins. So Jesus atoning sacrifice was limited to the many.
Even the verse you shared doesn't state he is the propitiation for all humanity, though many read it that way. The whole world is simply a phrase that references people out of every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue. It is simply a way of stating that salvation was available to all people groups and not simply to Jews.
 
lrs68 said:
God made a plan to save people. He made it before the foundation of the world. Is that Plan Jesus or man?
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I'm talking mainly of hermeneutics here and you're talking lopsided theology. There's no way on this little green planet that you can make Jesus either the subject of the sentence or the object of the verb "chose". End of story.
 
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Rufus said:
And the chosen ones of God are not in that Plan, as well? What is God saving: Fruit trees?
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No, it's just the Plan who will be doing the saving. This is a Letter from Paul to a Person which equals US in the Letter.
 
Cameron143 said:
I don't believe any of what you stated. That's more false attribution.
Now to the question from Hebrews 9:28: did Jesus bear the sins of all of humanity on the cross or only for many?
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If he only died for many then his sacrifice would not have been enough to free the world from sin.

Since the creation of Adam to now sin has been in the world and if Jesus dying wasn't enough to free us from it then what would and who would?

Limited atonement seems to disregard the was on sin and make it less about being free from sin and more about being chosen
 
Rufus said:
I'm talking mainly of hermeneutics here and you're talking lopsided theology. There's no way on this little green planet that you can make Jesus either the subject of the sentence or the object of the verb "chose". End of story.
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Why not when only ONE can make people Holy and Blameless and Saved?
 
Rufus said:
You disagree that God's chosen people are also an integral part of that Plan! Jesus has his role and the elect have theirs in the Plan!
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No names are mentioned to the us. Only Jesus is mentioned. He is the Plan to save the people.
 
Cameron143 said:
It means you don't understand the verse. Jesus can't both bear the sins for all of humanity and only some. Hebrews 9:28 clearly teaches it is for some. Additionally, Matthew 20:28 states that Jesus gave His life a ransom for many, and not all. Still further, Matthew 26:28 says Jesus blood was shed for many for the remission of sins. So Jesus atoning sacrifice was limited to the many.
Even the verse you shared doesn't state he is the propitiation for all humanity, though many read it that way. The whole world is simply a phrase that references people out of every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue. It is simply a way of stating that salvation was available to all people groups and not simply to Jews.
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Exactly right! John himself makes the distinction between Jews and Gentiles, since he excluded the Jews from the "whole world" -- a world that the Jews themselves (and rightly so!) never considered themselves to be part of.

Num 23:8-9
8 "How shall I curse whom God has not cursed?
And how shall I denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9 For from the top of the rocks I see him,
And from the hills I behold him;
There! A people dwelling alone,
Not reckoning itself among the nations.
NKJV
 
Blain said:
If he only died for many then his sacrifice would not have been enough to free the world from sin.

Since the creation of Adam to now sin has been in the world and if Jesus dying wasn't enough to free us from it then what would and who would?

Limited atonement seems to disregard the was on sin and make it less about being free from sin and more about being chosen
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Then you misunderstand scripture as a whole. None of it is about man. It is about what God in Christ has done. The only ones stuck on choice are those who don't believe in it. Those who have tasted and seen that the Lord is good are busy pursuing life in Christ. They are learning of Him and letting their lights so shine that others see and glorify God. These are those who are in intimate relationship with God and are working out their salvation in fear and trembling. They see God working in them and they are those who exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. They aren't self-centered but give God the glory in all things, including so great salvation.
 
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