Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[rogerg]

We can't save ourselves and that Verse is about Who was chosen before the foundation of the world TO SAVE US.

NO, the below verses declare those to become saved were chosen by God before the foundation of the world BY being placed IN Christ. Their intent was NOT to demonstrate that Christ was chosen as Savior from before the foundation of the world, but rather, they're about WHO will become saved and why they will be.

[Eph 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


[1Co 1:30 KJV] 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[2Co 1:21 KJV] 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

 

[Rufus]

She makes quite a few statements that directly contradict what Scripture explicitly states, but I have
never seen her accept correction. She prefers mocking and scoffing and holding to her error, probably
because she is so in love with her philosophically based vain self-exalting Pelagian heresy. With
people like her, telling the truth to her lies does little good. It is so weird to see people like
that telling us how much they believe what the Bible says when they repeatedly contradict it.

I have never seen any FWer here "accept correction". For example, recently CV5 posited the lame idea that Adam was tempted by the Serpent. Of course, this was a patently false statement, and I proved it from a couple of NT passages. But he remained silent. He never acknowledged the correction.

 

[Rufus]

Magenta said:


She makes quite a few statements that directly contradict what Scripture explicitly states, but I have
never seen her accept correction. She prefers mocking and scoffing and holding to her error, probably
because she is so in love with her philosophically based vain self-exalting Pelagian heresy. With
people like her, telling the truth to her lies does little good. It is so weird to see people like
that telling us how much they believe what the Bible says when they repeatedly contradict it.

And in so doing she unwittingly places herself in the same camp as Pharaoh who himself was a type of Satan! Check out this eye-opening, succinct, concise passage that nonetheless says a mouthful and then some about knowing the Lord!

Ex 5:1-2
5:1 Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Let my people go, so that they may hold a festival to me in the desert.'"

2 Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not KNOW the LORD and I will not let Israel go."
NIV

A lot of food for thought in that passage, most especially when you consider the New Covenant promises of God and how he would give his covenant people a new will that's he'll set free so that some of them will actually know Him -- oops, my bad. I meant to say how God will give his people a new heart to know Him!

 

[Rufus]

NO, the below verses declare those to become saved were chosen by God before the foundation of the world BY being placed IN Christ. Their intent was NOT to demonstrate that Christ was chosen as Savior from before the foundation of the world, but rather, they're about WHO will become saved and why they will be.

[Eph 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


[1Co 1:30 KJV] 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[2Co 1:21 KJV] 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

Have you ever noticed how FWers very often have grapple and wrestle with personal pronouns because the correct use of them would contradict their presuppositions? The often have to perform great feats of mental gymnastics to make a text say what they want it to say.

 

[lrs68]

This is completely false. A plain reading of the verse and a basic knowledge of grammar proves you wrong.

On a related topic, Hebrews 9:28 states that Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. Does this verse teach that Jesus bore the sins in His body of all or some?

The Verse plainly states we are In Him. He's the important factor. He's the only thing about God's Plan that Saves.

You clearly are adhering to doctrine.

 

[lrs68]

NO, the below verses declare those to become saved were chosen by God before the foundation of the world BY being placed IN Christ. Their intent was NOT to demonstrate that Christ was chosen as Savior from before the foundation of the world, but rather, they're about WHO will become saved and why they will be.

[Eph 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


[1Co 1:30 KJV] 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[2Co 1:21 KJV] 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

God made a plan through Jesus that makes us holy and without blame.

Every Verse you gave says IN CHRIST.

Why does it mention IN CHRIST if this Verse is about people?

 

[Rufus]

The Verse plainly states we are In Him. He's the important factor. He's the only thing about God's Plan that Saves.

You clearly are adhering to doctrine.

And it also states that "He chose US..." The object of the verb "chose" isn't Him but US! But you can't accept this because "you are clearly adhering to doctrine".

 

[Rufus]

God made a plan through Jesus that makes us holy and without blame.

Every Verse you gave says IN CHRIST.

Why does it mention IN CHRIST if this Verse is about people?

It's about the rules and convention of language. And since salvation is a two-sided coin , i.e. God's Provision on one hand and His elect's Response on the other, then why do you find it so a strange that the two elements be found in any given passage?

 

[Cameron143]

The Verse plainly states we are In Him. He's the important factor. He's the only thing about God's Plan that Saves.

You clearly are adhering to doctrine.

Well let's see if your last statement is actually true. I asked you about Hebrews 9:28 which states that Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. According to this verse, did Jesus bear the sins of all humanity on the cross or only some?

 

[lrs68]

And it also states that "He chose US..." The object of the verb "chose" isn't Him but US! But you can't accept this because "you are clearly adhering to doctrine".

God did choose US, He chose us to be saved through Christ. But the emphasis is only about Who saves. You are making it about man.

 

[lrs68]

It's about the rules and convention of language. And since salvation is a two-sided coin , i.e. God's Provision on one hand and His elect's Response on the other, then why do you find it so a strange that the two elements be found in any given passage?

It's a description of the Plan but only one factor is important to that Plan which is Jesus.

 

[lrs68]

Well let's see if your last statement is actually true. I asked you about Hebrews 9:28 which states that Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. According to this verse, did Jesus bear the sins of all humanity on the cross or only some?

Jesus said He died for the world. The world is more than just people. Do we trust the words that came directly out of the mouth of God Himself or someone who was inspired but using their own words?

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus said He died for the world. The world is more than just people. Do we trust the words that came directly out of the mouth of God Himself or someone who was inspired but using their own words?

I asked a question you avoided. What does the verse clearly teach: Jesus bore in His body the sins of all humanity or some?

Once we understand this verse, we'll better be able to understand others. Please answer the question I asked.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus said He died for the world. The world is more than just people. Do we trust the words that came directly out of the mouth of God Himself or someone who was inspired but using their own words?

BTW...all scripture is God-breathed. It is all equally authoritative.

 

[lrs68]

I asked a question you avoided. What does the verse clearly teach: Jesus bore in His body the sins of all humanity or some?

Once we understand this verse, we'll better be able to understand others. Please answer the question I asked.

That Verse tells me after almost 200 years of human history [because of all of the New Testament Books Hebrews papyrus method it was written on didn't exist until 120 years after the Ascension of Jesus] that not everyone accepted Jesus. So that Verse can plainly state factually that not everyone will believe.

Oddly enough that Verse says He died for many but we know it's not even 10% of all humanity. Interesting!

 

[lrs68]

BTW...all scripture is God-breathed. It is all equally authoritative.

I agree but when Jesus spoke it's word for word from God Himself directly. So no human interference.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well...for starters God's love is conditional! So...there's that...

So far no one can state the conditions, criteria for success, to earn a spot on the pre-birth lottery salvation list.

 

[rogerg]

God made a plan through Jesus that makes us holy and without blame.

Every Verse you gave says IN CHRIST.

Why does it mention IN CHRIST if this Verse is about people?

I explained that. It is because God placed in Christ, from before the foundation of the world, all those who must become saved.
Since Christ alone is the Savior, there is no other way unto salvation but to first have been placed in Him
Therefore, those not placed in Christ (from before the foundation of the world), can never become saved.

 

[Cameron143]

That Verse tells me after almost 200 years of human history [because of all of the New Testament Books Hebrews papyrus method it was written on didn't exist until 120 years after the Ascension of Jesus] that not everyone accepted Jesus. So that Verse can plainly state factually that not everyone will believe.

Oddly enough that Verse says He died for many but we know it's not even 10% of all humanity. Interesting!

You miss the point. Many people here say Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind. I offered 3 verses...Matthew 20:28, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:28...all of which categorically state this isn't the case. And since it is not the case, many of the presuppositions set forth based on it being the case are simply false.
God did choose us in Christ. Is Christ preeminent over all? Of course. Were we chosen? Indeed we are. There is no need to exclude what verses plainly state.

 

[lrs68]

I explained that. It is because God placed in Christ, from before the foundation of the world, all those who must become saved.
Since Christ alone is the Savior, there is no other way unto salvation but to first have been placed in Him
Therefore, those not placed in Christ (from before the foundation of the world), can never become saved.

My point is that Paul didn't say those written in the Book of Life. He's just writing a Letter.

But I agree with your post. Christ is the Plan that was created before the foundation of the world.