Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Yes. These are constantly denied and rejected......
1 Tim 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Cor 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Of course FWers' interpretations are "denied and rejected" on hermeneutical grounds -- a "little" item called context is missing from all.

 

[studier]

Interesting, I did a bit of research enough the exact term "spiritually dead" does not occur in scripture.
I think it is accurate to say that the Greek term for dead needs to be understood in context of the passage.

From Bill Mounce,
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
Gloss:
dead (can be used physically or fig., of both persons and things); (n.) dead person, corpse

Definition:
dead, without life, Mt. 11:5; 22:31; met. νεκρός τινι, dead to a thing, no longer devoted to, or under the influence of a thing, Rom. 6:11; dead in respect of fruitlessness, Jas. 2:17, 20, 26; morally or spiritually dead, Rom. 6:13; Eph. 5:14; dead in alienation from God, Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13; subject to death, mortal, Rom. 8:10; causing death and misery, fatal, having a destructive power, Heb. 6:1; 9:14

Link

If we agree it means alienation from God in some verses, then I think the question becomes what is the impact.
I think it is important to make clear that death is about separation and not functionality as people so with the Lazuras example.
The impact is the capacity to sin.
Thoughts?

Mounce can be a good resource, IMO. His publications were used in the first-year Greek training I received.

So, we note how he interprets "nekros" ("dead") in various Scriptures. And we note the range of meaning he says it has.

And we note in this range metaphorical concepts like devotion, influence, alienation, etc.

And we note that Mounce includes Eph2:1, 5 in his Definition examples which I earlier pointed out as an inclusio bookending the 5 verses involved as being a unit.

So, Mounce says Eph2:1 is Paul using "dead in trespasses-violations and sins" as metaphor for being alienated from God.

So, do we disagree or agree with Mounce?

Do the verses from Eph2:1-5 describe what metaphorical death - alienation from God - looks like?

Is alienation from God the best we can do in describing those 5 verses where Paul is explaining this metaphorical death?

Do we have to take this metaphorical death into the human spirit being dead? Is the human spirit mentioned in these verses?

Does this metaphorical death sound like a corpse?

God decades ago, encouraged me to ask Him questions and to always listen to the check in my spirit in Christ in Spirit when I heard or read something that prompted it. Until He may tell me to stop, I plan to keep seeking and asking and trusting only Him no matter who thinks their long-dead or still living favorite pastors, teachers, theologians, translators are.

Thanks for the response @HeIsHere

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My immediate concern is not "could" so much as "should".

It's interesting you bring up the Gospel in this light. Not too long ago I came to the point where all the theology seemed unimportant, relatively speaking, and the fact that I know and believe and am committed and subordinate to as deeply as I know, what Paul teaches and refers to as the [only or one] foundation - Jesus = Christ (1Cor3:10-11) was the main thing.

And because of Paul's evangelistic ministry which pointed hearers to Psalm2 and YHWH's resurrected Christ/King (Acts13:30-33), I know what Jesus = Christ means.

I think we're both saying God has made this pretty simple. If not, I know you can explain and do so respectfully.

“My immediate concern is not "could" so much as "should".

what should a new born or very young babe know ? And what should an adult parent know ? And what should old grandma know before she loses a bit of it ?

“It's interesting you bring up the Gospel in this light. Not too long ago I came to the point where all the theology seemed unimportant, relatively speaking, and the fact that I know and believe and am committed and subordinate to as deeply as I know, what Paul teaches and refers to as the [only or one] foundation - Jesus = Christ (1Cor3:10-11) was the main thing.”

Yes the gospel is a converter of darkness to light.

“And because of Paul's evangelistic ministry which pointed hearers to Psalm2 and YHWH's resurrected Christ/King (Acts13:30-33), I know what Jesus = Christ means.”

Yes you often have alot of insight and know stuff.

With knowledge comes accountability What I mean is it doesn’t raise up another persons standard of accountability , because I learn and know more myself , it only raises my own standard

“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:

and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. ( teachers get understanding they know more , but also thier personal accountability goes up with it )

We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.”
‭‭James‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

still haven’t met that perfect guy other than Jesus. But teachers many want to be and maybe they are , thier accountability goes up the more they claim they understand and spread.

Simplicity is bliss

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

True statement. simple and a summary of gods move but it’s truth. Confirmed repeatedly in the Bible that whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved. It’s oresched so people can believe the message and then later begin to grow by the depths of the message it’s a progression

when a child is first born they belong even though they don’t know much of anything yet but when they grow up and know stuff then they are accountable whether they know and act in the wrong or right

“If not, I know you can explain and do so respectfully.”

naw but I can ramble on with the best of them as proven above

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course FWers' interpretations are "denied and rejected" on hermeneutical grounds -- a "little" item called context is missing from all.

Would you agree that happens on both sides of the debate ?

 

[Magenta]

Amen and.....

• 2 Chronicles 19:7, ‘Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes’.
• Job 36:5, ‘Behold, God is mighty, and does not despise any; he is mighty in strength of understanding’.
• Acts 10:34, ‘So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality’.
• Romans 2:11, ‘For God shows no partiality’.
• 1 Timothy 2:4 states that God our Saviour ‘desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth’.
• James 1:17, ‘Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change’.
• James 3:17, ‘But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere’.
• 1 Peter 1:17, ‘And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile’.

I find it odd that you include in your list Scriptures you actually deny...

For instance, James 1:17.

James 1 v 17-18, Numbers 23 v 19c, and from Philippians 3 v 21 ~ Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation. Does He promise and not fulfill? He has the power to subject all things to Himself.

 

[HeIsHere]

So, God is indebted to mankind to save all or provided opportunities for all to potentially become saved? On what judicial basis do you blaspheme the living God for being "unrighteous, partial and unjust"? What is the judicial basis for your accusation that God is partial?

True story: Just yesterday I read a very sad story about a woman who abused her NINE (9) small children by forcing them to live in squalor, filth, hunger, malnourishment and overall poor health. Meanwhile, other kids with other families have it much better. Explain to me how God is "unrighteous, partial and unjust" for decreeing that the nine kids have the kind of broken home and a grossly irresponsible and unloving mother on one hand, while on the other He also decreed in eternity that many other kids have a much better lifestyle with better parents.

Or...more true stories from the bible: How was God "unrighteous, partial and unjust" in decreeing in eternity that Issac and Jacob would participate in the inheritance of the Abrahamic Covenant, while rejecting Ishmael and Esau from this same covenant.

Spiritual salvation is not by birthright but by belief.

They are the typology of unbelievers not for the doctrine of individual selection of being zapped with regeneration before belief.

 

[Rufus]

Mounce can be a good resource, IMO. His publications were used in the first-year Greek training I received.

So, we note how he interprets "nekros" ("dead") in various Scriptures. And we note the range of meaning he says it has.

And we note in this range metaphorical concepts like devotion, influence, alienation, etc.

And we note that Mounce includes Eph2:1, 5 in his Definition examples which I earlier pointed out as an inclusio bookending the 5 verses involved as being a unit.

So, Mounce says Eph2:1 is Paul using "dead in trespasses-violations and sins" as metaphor for being alienated from God.

So, do we disagree or agree with Mounce?

Do the verses from Eph2:1-5 describe what metaphorical death - alienation from God - looks like?

Is alienation from God the best we can do in describing those 5 verses where Paul is explaining this metaphorical death?

Do we have to take this metaphorical death into the human spirit being dead? Is the human spirit mentioned in these verses?

Does this metaphorical death sound like a corpse?

God decades ago, encouraged me to ask Him questions and to always listen to the check in my spirit in Christ in Spirit when I heard or read something that prompted it. Until He may tell me to stop, I plan to keep seeking and asking and trusting only Him no matter who thinks their long-dead or still living favorite pastors, teachers, theologians, translators are.

Of course not! It's referring to physical zombies.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Spiritual salvation is not by birthright but by belief.

They are the typology of unbelievers not for the doctrine of individual selection of being zapped with regeneration before belief.

“salvation is not by birthright but by belief.”

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Rufus]

In my 7383 I asked FWers to explain the importance of "knowing" God in 2Thes 1:8-10, and no one answered to the best of my knowledge. I have to conclude that all FWers here are total strangers to this concept and that none of you actually know God -- which would further mean none of you are saved. Just thought you should know the severity and gravity of this theological issue and its real world implications.

 

[HeIsHere]

In my 7383 I asked FWers to explain the importance of "knowing" God in 2Thes 1:8-10, and no one answered to the best of my knowledge. I have to conclude that all FWers here are total strangers to this concept and that none of you actually know God -- which would further mean none of you are saved. Just thought you should know the severity and gravity of this theological issue and its real world implications.

I suppose this should be read with the utmost gravitas!!!

 

[Magenta]

Mounce can be a good resource, IMO. His publications were used in the first-year Greek training I received.

So, we note how he interprets "nekros" ("dead") in various Scriptures. And we note the range of meaning he says it has.

And we note in this range metaphorical concepts like devotion, influence, alienation, etc.

And we note that Mounce includes Eph2:1, 5 in his Definition examples which I earlier pointed out as an inclusio bookending the 5 verses involved as being a unit.

So, Mounce says Eph2:1 is Paul using "dead in trespasses-violations and sins" as metaphor for being alienated from God.

So, do we disagree or agree with Mounce?

Do the verses from Eph2:1-5 describe what metaphorical death - alienation from God - looks like?

Is alienation from God the best we can do in describing those 5 verses where Paul is explaining this metaphorical death?

Do we have to take this metaphorical death into the human spirit being dead? Is the human spirit mentioned in these verses?

Does this metaphorical death sound like a corpse?

God decades ago, encouraged me to ask Him questions and to always listen to the check in my spirit in Christ in Spirit when I heard or read something that prompted it. Until He may tell me to stop, I plan to keep seeking and asking and trusting only Him no matter who thinks their long-dead or still living favorite pastors, teachers, theologians, translators are.

Thanks for the response @HeIsHere

You go on and on an on about Mounce and then say, you trust only God. Of course, you must also add
your imperial sense of superiority concerning your belief that others rely on long-dead or still living
favourite pastors, teachers, theologians, translators etc. Which is really dishonest of you because
you are constantly referring to some other source, teacher, translator, etc. Which is a logical fallacy...
It must provide some level of comfort to you as you reject, contradict, and outright deny Scripture.

 

[Rufus]

Spiritual salvation is not by birthright but by belief.

They are the typology of unbelievers not for the doctrine of individual selection of being zapped with regeneration before belief.

But God's eternal decree regarding Issac and Jacob and Ishmael and Esau predates their unbelief -- plus his decree has nothing to do with any activity whatsoever on their part.

Also, by God decreeing that Issac and Jacob would inherit the birthright stipulated in the Abrahamic Covenant, he decreed their salvation; for no one outside the Abrahamic Covenant was part of God's covenant community.

Now...what about the true story about this woman and her nine unfortunate children? Going by YOUR logic, God was very unrighteous, unfair and unjust in appointing them in eternity to be born into this kind of situation with such an uncaring, unloving, uncompassionate mother. How do you justify this kind of temporal inequality and inequity with your concept of God, since so many other children have it so much better?

 

[Rufus]

I suppose this should be read with the utmost gravitas!!!

The fact that you find the text in 2Thess 1:8-10 so amusing does not speak well to your relationship with God. If you really know God, you should have a serious, ready answer to my theological question.

 

[HeIsHere]

You mean Jesus told him the Gospel and he believed?

Just rereading through the thread.... very important to make this clarification.

 

[Magenta]

The fact that you find the text in 2Thess 1:8-10 so amusing does not speak well to your relationship with God.
If you really know God, you should have a serious, ready answer to my theological question.

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

 

[studier]

what should a new born or very young babe know ? And what should an adult parent know ? And what should old grandma know before she loses a bit of it ?

Heb5:9-6:15 we'd better be growing up to maturity, which is based in learning and training (Heb5:14 includes the word "gymnos" which is pretty easy to transliterate). After the rebuke contained in Heb5, Heb6 contains a warning for being sluggish in this growth to maturity.

One of the main things I used to test re: foundations was whether or not "believers" knew and understood what "Christ" means. Paul says it's foundational. I can't tell you how many I asked whose response was akin to the idiomatic and metaphorical "deer in the highlights". You know the caveat in 1Cor3 about a solid foundation and building with quality materials thereupon.

I guess from there we'd eventually get into the meat of what Paul's discussing in Scriptures like 1Cor2-3 that we seem to argue about all the time due to that certain tradition that frequents these threads.

The issue is that the entire NC Writings is ultimately the Gospel from milk to meat. And, as I think it has been @reneweddaybyday clearly pointing out, that Gospel goes back to Genesis and forward from there. As Paul says, all is written for our instruction.

And to end, a favored teacher of some here, RBThieme who as @Genez has pointed out, was about as prolific as they come, teaching at one time as I recall 5 days/week. Some used to call him "machine gun" not only because of his military background, but also because of his knowledge and delivery speed. With all that, one day I heard him lament, which was a very, very rare event, that no man can learn this Book in a lifetime. It/He humbles the best of us.

Bottom line, we keep at it, and even after maturity/completion/perfection.1 assuming we get there, we're responsible for walking at the level we've attained and know God will reveal where we may get off-base as we continue the pursuit to resurrection (Phil3). He's committed to get us there (Phil1:6). We have several commands and warnings to consider in the process.

 

[studier]

Spiritual salvation is not by birthright but by belief.

Interesting retort.

 

[Magenta]

But God's eternal decree regarding Issac and Jacob and Ishmael and Esau predates their unbelief -- plus his decree has nothing to do with any activity whatsoever on their part.

Also, by God decreeing that Issac and Jacob would inherit the birthright stipulated in the Abrahamic Covenant, he decreed their salvation; for no one outside the Abrahamic Covenant was part of God's covenant community.

Now...what about the true story about this woman and her nine unfortunate children? Going by YOUR logic, God was very unrighteous, unfair and unjust in appointing them in eternity to be born into this kind of situation with such an uncaring, unloving, uncompassionate mother. How do you justify this kind of temporal inequality and inequity with your concept of God, since so many other children have it so much better?

Daniel 4 verse 35~ All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ Isaiah 14 verse 24~ The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Psalm 139 verse 16~ Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Proverbs 16 verse 9~ In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 19 verse 21~ Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.

 

[Magenta]

Interesting retort.

It was a non sequitor, actually.

 

[studier]

In my 7383 I asked FWers to explain the importance of "knowing" God in 2Thes 1:8-10, and no one answered to the best of my knowledge. I have to conclude that all FWers here are total strangers to this concept and that none of you actually know God -- which would further mean none of you are saved. Just thought you should know the severity and gravity of this theological issue and its real world implications.

I for one answered you. You'll need to search for it if you care to.

I don't think I was the only one to answer.