Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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That's the job of Grace to take over to make us who are unable, to be able while under the influence of God's power.
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me,
“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s
power may rest on me." 2 Corinthians 12:8-9
Grace is a real effectual power from God to enable us to do what is impossible for us to do.
Without God's grace?
No one could believe and be saved!
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“I'm attempting to get at how God knows all things. “
you tell me how ? I’ve already told you my opinion. But ill
Listen to you tell Me how he knows what he knows with an open mind of I can understand what you’re saying.
“God made sheep in a particular fashion. They were created with 4 legs, a particular type of stomach, and a thick outer coat. Thus, because of the way God created sheep, He knows they will walk on 4 legs, eat grass, and provide substances for clothing.
If this is true of sheep, would this not also apply to all of creation?”
Yes brother I’m sure god knew after he made a sheep with four legs for walking it would walk on four legs yeah I’m sure he knows man would walk on two legs as well .
im sure he knew that the knowledge of good and evil wasnt meant for man to partake of also and that he knew when they did it that would bring them death .
Sure he knows that man will be judged based on what they do and say and so he told them ahead of time forewarning them.
Dead in sin and alienated from the life of God Eph 4 18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
John 1:17-18 KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”( that is grace god fave his son to a world of sinners so that anyone who believes will be saved , it’s a finished work grace has already appeared to all
Mankind in the gospel )
John 3:16 KJV
gods saving grace has already appeared to all creation
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”
Titus 2:11 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
Mark 16:15
yes ... by all means ... search it out ... what I have found in these issues that deal with eternity is that there is always more ... just as we see a glimpse of that which is eternal, our capacity to understand and comprehend that which is eternal expands and there is always more to search out. A worthy endeavor and one that will have no end ... happy searching ...
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yes I agreed also renewed has a lot of good stuff to say always has since I’ve been here
Total depravity is a true doctrine if it is taught correctly. Man is not born totally depraved but if the Lord never extended His grace? Then we all would become totally depraved and utterly wicked, there would be no choice in the matter.
Thankfully the Lord extends His grace before we even know we need it.
Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
This is my understanding also.
@Magenta drives this point home......But for some reason she cannot see the Grace that He extends to ALL.
... Ephesians 2:5 taken out of context to state that "grace ... makes one alive".however ... please note ...
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
God makes alive ... by grace through faith ...
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There are some of us who think God's choice had nothing to do with who would be saved, but that simply gets overlooked.
Why some are saved and some not is no mystery. God has declared who would have eternal life. Jn.3:16
Why are some believers in Christ and some not, is a mystery. God sovereignly chose what to do with each believer.
Just putting this out there so those who are interested can see that when it comes to the doctrine of election, we can start in different places which, is one reason these debates go round and round.
You raise some good and interesting questions. And we can begin with some things that are true of God. First, we know the will of God is never thwarted...Daniel 4:35. Second, we know that God has determined that heaven will be populated by people from every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue. So...if there is a people group in Ninevah, God intends to save at least some of them. It appears God chose that particular time to save some of them.Were you trying to hit two birds with one stone? I have to share an answer with Pilgramshope?! I see. I'm not worth the extra effort? Wow! I must be a really soft.
Ok, I can work with it. God presented Jonah with the decision, and with no foreknowledge of the fish, he had a choice between everyone in the boat's certain death or letting them throw him over to what, as far as any of them could see, was his certain death, and everyone in the boat knew that Jonah ('s disobedience), personally, was the reason of the storm. So, like Isaac, Jonah agreed to the (required) sacrifice. Then along comes the fish that spits him back onto dry ground and, presented again with the choice to go to Nineveh, surely Jonah had at least a better understanding of the result of fighting against God and so he goes, but still begrudgingly given he's still sulking under the sprout afterward.
Jonah's mission was in regard to declaring the message of God's intentions upon the city and his extension of mercy toward it contingent upon their repentance. Could they have refused? They saw their sworn enemy, that hated them with everything he had, come out of the depths of the sea with seaweed still clinging to the crack of his loincloth telling them that it pleased God to extend mercy toward them if they'd repent in sackcloth and ashes. Could they have said, "Ha! as if? @that?! Yes, if they were totally and absolutely incapable of reasoning that God is faithful to do as He says, even after being given such evidence of the lengths He will go in the effort to carry out His will?
Do not feel obligated to answer these question that follow as they are likely only rhetorical in nature as I wonder out loud.
Although it was God's intention, and I'll put it, rather than say 'to save Nineveh', I'll phrase it as 'not to destroy Ninevah' since history informs us that Ninevah is eventually destroyed. Was it God's intended 'purpose' in dealing with Nineveh at all to reveal His overarching plan to be realized in Christ?
As to the issue of man's choices and how it accomplishes God's will, this can be a little more complicated. Could Jonah have continued to disobey? Sure. Did God know precisely what it would take to gain Jonah's compliance? Of course. So I would say that God used chastisement in Jonah's life to influence his cooperation.
Could the Ninevites have resisted the message from God? Sure. But then we have to ask why they didn't? And why did God choose that particular time in history to send someone to Ninevah? He has gone to great lengths to have His message heard of them. We know when God's word goes forth it always accomplishes God's purpose whereunto it was sent. Wasn't it then God's will to save?
I personally believe God is much more active in the affairs of men than many consider. This doesn't mean that people don't exercise choice, but that God has already taken the choices of man into account as He accomplishes His purposes.
If I might chime in with an observation. I think possibly the reason repentance gets coupled with sorrow is due to the fact that the Spirit is in the world convicting us of righteousness, sin and judgement. At that point alone, any man worth his salt, would indeed be moved to great sorrow for he recognises his life is bound to death and without any merit. But it is at this point the Gospel (good news) enters in to relieve us of our sorrow. However, the process is pretty much instantaneous so that the former sorrow is still lingering (in memory at least) and so tends to be connected together with the change of mind from hopelessness (dead in sin) to confidence (life in Christ). This is how I see the following verse play out from the moment of salvation and into, especially the early part, of our walk with Christ.
2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.
Godly grief is the work of the Spirit which in turn leads you to seek the truth which is our salvation. For those who do not seek God's truth on the matter, remain bound to their own efforts which is why "worldly grief" produces death. The latter have no solution for their pain, only more pain.
Grace makes alive and Grace gives Faith as well to believe in Christ for having saved them
however ... please note ...
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
God makes alive ... by grace through faith ...
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Godly repentance comes from a godly source, the new birth and new heart, its not found in the old man nature, only that which brings death
Certainly, everyone involved in that account, regardless of their eternal fate, learned of God's salvation.
God's truth on the matter boils down to accepting that which is hardest to believe, His love is for you (singularly). It occurred to me this is the difference between Godly and worldly grief, that world grief regrets that is has missed knowing the world's love (painfully absent) and the grief of having missed the knowledge God's love (what is to regret of what's Always been Present?).
Appreciate the response and I know of what you're drawing from, but I'd like to see the verses - Eph4:18 doesn't say dead in sin.
I do think "being alienated/estranged [of] the life [of] God is meaningful.
Is there any verse that says, "spiritually dead"?
Interesting. I see things slightly different. I believe God knowing what people will do etc is from His omniscience and that informs Him who the believers are and who are not. He then separates the two and applies His foreknowledge (a relational knowledge not simply a data base knowledge) to those believers choosing where and when and for what purpose He shall place them in space and time.
We (the Church) have been placed in Christ to grow up to the full stature of the Son. A different choice was made for Noah or Moses etc.
Of course you may. I don't disagree but just explained in a recent post what I see in this verse and in the whole concept of "repent" vs. "change of mind".
Thanks for the input!