Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Spoken like a true fisherman fisherwoman...

Yes... they are trying to reel them in any way they can! Hook, line, and sinker...

Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I understand your point: you believe that the foreknowledge of God recognizes what people will do and He judges accordingly. I don't deny this aspect of foreknowledge, but don't believe this aspect of foreknowledge is the extent of foreknowledge. I believe foreknowledge also includes God's foreknowledge of His purposes, of His foreknowledge as a result of creation itself, as well as His foreknowledge of individuals. You seem only to acknowledge foreknowledge according to one aspect of God's omniscience. I'm attempting to show that God's omniscience may be more encompassing than you allow for.

“I understand your point: you believe that the foreknowledge of God recognizes what people will do and He judges accordingly. I don't deny this aspect of foreknowledge,”

perfect thank you .

“but don't believe this aspect of foreknowledge is the extent of foreknowledge. I believe foreknowledge also includes God's foreknowledge of His purposes, of His foreknowledge as a result of creation itself, as well as His foreknowledge of individuals.”

yeah i agree with this but see him knowing the individual is why he knows what they’re gonna do he sees our heart and motivations and that’s where our actions come from . So I think those are parts of the same . Sort of this might show what I mean he knew this part is why he knew the other

“For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭33:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He knew thier hearts and so therefore understood the kind of actions they would do ahead after Moses thier intercessor died .


His foreknowledge like your saying is more than just our deeds no argument

i appreciate you acknowledging what I was saying that’s refreshing

 

[HeIsHere]

You are exactly correct. The word salads, word games and endless Questions.....Answer a LOT of questions.

Yes, I am beginning to wonder if the questions are to sow doubt... exploit any weakness in the argument to

bring in converts to "the system."

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Far from it. Grace is a word that calvies just use. They don't KNOW it.

The Bible teaches of two versions of grace Gods version found in the gospel that teaches us to repent and live upright lives while we wait for Jesus to return

and one version coming men who crept in changing gods grace into lasciviousness , liscense to sin freely without consequence sort of a get out of jail free card

 

[Blain]

Suppose that we take free will as is described in the only way I have seen it used in scripture and that being not my will be done but the fathers, disregarding all the complicated arguments and just take it as his will being done what is the fathers will? how do we learn what his will is without overcomplicating the issue?

I mean this thread is how many pages long now? are we still not able to come to a concrete answer? why is that?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To what do you attribute God's foreknowledge?

His identity

 

[Cameron143]

“I understand your point: you believe that the foreknowledge of God recognizes what people will do and He judges accordingly. I don't deny this aspect of foreknowledge,”

perfect thank you .

“but don't believe this aspect of foreknowledge is the extent of foreknowledge. I believe foreknowledge also includes God's foreknowledge of His purposes, of His foreknowledge as a result of creation itself, as well as His foreknowledge of individuals.”

yeah i agree with this but see him knowing the individual is why he knows what they’re gonna do he sees our heart and motivations and that’s where our actions come from . So I think those are parts of the same . Sort of this might show what I mean he knew this part is why he knew the other

“For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭33:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He knew thier hearts and so therefore understood the kind of actions they would do ahead after Moses thier intercessor died .


His foreknowledge like your saying is more than just our deeds no argument

i appreciate you acknowledging what I was saying that’s refreshing

In earnest, I thought I had acknowledged this in earlier posts.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Suppose that we take free will as is described in the only way I have seen it used in scripture and that being not my will be done but the fathers, disregarding all the complicated arguments and just take it as his will being done what is the fathers will? how do we learn what his will is without overcomplicating the issue?

I mean this thread is how many pages long now? are we still not able to come to a concrete answer? why is that?

“how do we learn what his will is without overcomplicating the issue?”

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Cameron143]

His identity

And not also in His purposes, ways, and actions?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In earnest, I thought I had acknowledged this in earlier posts.

Yeah i find it hard to follow sometimes what your saying so you could have , either way I appreciate the clarity of that response

 

[Kroogz]

are we still not able to come to a concrete answer? why is that?

FREEWILL.

 

[HeIsHere]

we read in Scripture "there is none that seeketh after God " (Rom 3:11).

I would not build a doctrine on one verse.

 

[Kroogz]

and one version coming men who crept in changing gods grace into lasciviousness , liscense to sin freely without consequence sort of a get out of jail free card

We could have many pages on this statement. The biggest lie in your above quote is,"without consequence."

There are HUGE consequences for living in sin after salvation. It's just not loss of eternal life.

The hard part? Most believers live in evil(human good/religion) and not sin after salvation.

 

[HeIsHere]

“God has given us the Scriptures ... that is God making the first move.

God inspires faithful believers to speak His Word to the world ... that is God making the first move.”

exactly he’s always been making the first move from the beginning always extending his hand to mankind . We’re not incapable we’re corrupt

Yes this is correct.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

And not also in His purposes, ways, and actions?

To be clear are you asking if his purposes ways and actions are the source of his foreknowledge ?

If so I don’t think it’s the source no . I think he operates by his foreknowledge of mankind to bring his purposes for them to pass , but I believe his identity as the creator and omnipotent one and only true God is the source of his foreknowledge

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I haven’t said god was suprised by anything I’ve said god has foreknowledge and plans his work according to his foreknowledge knowing the outcome from the beginning . I’m saying he doesnt force and cause us to do the evil or the good . He ordained us to have dominion and freedom to choose from the beginning . I havent said man can surprise God or take him off guard. But that he knows beforehand and so he plans accordingly and watches things unfold from heaven as he acts accordingly to bring the outcome to pass in the end

I know you haven't and did not mean to imply that you had.

from here

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all the way to here

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬

yes ... in agreement ... all of God's creation is well within the purview of God.

salvation is offered by the gospel it’s fully sufficient to save anyone if they’ll accept it but it’s accepting it that saves us god can speak to us but if we refuse to hear it and choose our own mind and judgements and ways it’s not going to save us

right ... some are under the impression that the gospel will never be accepted until "God makes the first move" ... which God has ... in gifting His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes ... in sending His Word to faithful men who wrote it ... faithful men who speak it ... how much more does God have to do ??? according to some, He must give them a new heart before they can believe ... without realizing that the new heart is given when the gospel is believed.

And, to be honest, Pilgrimshope, I don't care if you believe God gives the new heart before ... or when ... all I care about is the baby ... are you born again ??? ... and if we're born again, don't denigrate the brother or sister who believes before or when ... or the unbeliever for that matter ... learn to hold your thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor 10:5) and discuss God's Holy Word in love and respect. I don't think people realize how hurtful it is to their witness when they treat others with such unmitigated contempt. Such behavior reveals a hardened heart/root of bitterness/lack of new birth within ... just sayin'

and I'm not saying you denigrate anyone, Pilgrimshope ... just letting off some steam ...
.

 

[Cameron143]

To be clear are you asking if his purposes ways and actions are the source of his foreknowledge ?

If so I don’t think it’s the source no . I think he operates by his foreknowledge of mankind to bring his purposes for them to pass , but I believe his identity as the creator and omnipotent one and only true God is the source of his foreknowledge

My question can be summarized this way: in creation, God made all things. In doing so and as a result of doing so, does God not know in His act of creating how all creation will respond? If so, is His omniscience not found in creating things as He has?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We could have many pages on this statement. The biggest lie in your above quote is,"without consequence."

There are HUGE consequences for living in sin after salvation. It's just not loss of eternal life.

The hard part? Most believers live in evil(human good/religion) and not sin after salvation.

Lol my lie haha you totally misunderstood me

i was saying in scripture there’s this grace taught that saves and is of god found in the gospel

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And the Bible also teaches us about this grace not of god

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ( false teachers and prophets were ordained to condemnation not individual people ) ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4‬

lasciviousness means like a liscense to freely sin and not have any consequences” I can just live like I want to and I’m saved anyways “

Its Not true at all though we can’t keep living in sin and saying we’re saved by grace have to come to repentance to be saved

“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I know you haven't and did not mean to imply that you had.





yes ... in agreement ... all of God's creation is well within the purview of God.





right ... some are under the impression that the gospel will never be accepted until "God makes the first move" ... which God has ... in gifting His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes ... in sending His Word to faithful men who wrote it ... faithful men who speak it ... how much more does God have to do ??? according to some, He must give them a new heart before they can believe ... without realizing that the new heart is given when the gospel is believed.

And, to be honest, Pilgrimshope, I don't care if you believe God gives the new heart before ... or when ... all I care about is the baby ... are you born again ??? ... and if we're born again, don't denigrate the brother or sister who believes before or when ... or the unbeliever for that matter ... learn to hold your thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor 10:5) and discuss God's Holy Word in love and respect. I don't think people realize how hurtful it is to their witness when they treat others with such unmitigated contempt. Such behavior reveals a hardened heart/root of bitterness/lack of new birth within ... just sayin'

and I'm not saying you denigrate anyone, Pilgrimshope ... just letting off some steam ...
.

I understand completely these circles and revolving ideas become exhausting

“ right ... some are under the impression that the gospel will never be accepted until "God makes the first move" ... which God has ... in gifting His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes ... in sending His Word to faithful men who wrote it ... faithful men who speak it ... how much more does God have to do ???”

Amen well said.

Always a pleasure , renewed …

 

[Kroogz]

Lol my lie haha you totally misunderstood me
‬‬

Sorry that it sounded that way! I understand that it is not "your" lie. It's the lie of the false teacher.

If a believer continues in a life of sin after salvation.....There are major consequences.