Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

I would not build a doctrine on one verse.

[Psa 53:1 KJV]
1 [[To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, [A Psalm] of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that doeth good.

The God deniers, those who say IN THEIR HEART, have made their choice. Then an inevitable pattern of life choices follow.

 

[Magenta]

There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26

 

[Magenta]

Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)

 

[Magenta]

It is God Who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose. Apart from Me you can do nothing. No word from God will ever fail. “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

 

[sawdust]

False and backwards. A person cant spiritually hear the Gospel when spiritually dead, duh

False and illogical. If they are spiritually alive, they are saved and have no need of the Gospel. They need the elementary doctrines now.

All things are possible for God. A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel when grace is applied and the Lord meets us with grace and truth at every turn. There is never a time when the Lord meets us with anything other than grace and truth.

How you lot can't see that you insist on being saved to be saved baffles me entirely.

 

[HeIsHere]

I will up the ante:
How can a non-choice fulfill the Biblical requirements set forth to be saved?

So very true.

To think God is just selecting people randomly throughout history for spiritual salvation and leaving others in their sin and defending this as the mystery of a sovereign God, it is shocking how this is promulgated as Biblical.

 

[studier]

I have another question for all you freewheeling FWers that pertains to this text:

2 Thess 1:8-10
8 ...in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
ESV

I think most of us can understand the bolded part about not obeying the gospel of Christ, but what's the big deal about those who don't know God? How come Paul lumped them in with those who reject the gospel? It appears that having no true personal knowledge of God is just as serious as not obeying the gospel. What sayest, thou, FWers?

Parallelism. Both clauses simply speak of unbelievers. "true personal knowledge" is interpretational error.

 

[cv5]

So very true.

To think God is just selecting people randomly throughout history for spiritual salvation and leaving others in their sin and defending this as the mystery of a sovereign God, it is shocking how this is promulgated as Biblical.

Its all crazy talk as far as I can tell.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm attempting to get at how God knows all things.

we will never comprehend this truth in our present state ... even in new heaven/new earth I wonder if we will be able to comprehend for there is no beginning and no end to God's omniscience ... whereas we are finite beings. We were never in eternity past outside of God's foreknowing. Although we have everlasting life, even in new heaven/new earth, there will be a beginning of that new creation ... and there are verses in Scripture which indicate this existing heaven/earth will be changed as opposed to God bringing something out of nothing ...

Hebrews 1:10-12 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
.

 

[Magenta]

To think God is just selecting people randomly throughout history for spiritual salvation and leaving others in
their sin and defending this as the mystery of a sovereign God, it is shocking how this is promulgated as Biblical.

God chooses based on His foreknowledge, mercy, and love. You say random but I say random is another of your
misrepresentations of Scripture, and impugns the character of God... which we know you have an inclination for doing.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

cc: @HeIsHere @Genez @cv5 and whoever may care.

Sorry to be off-point with your post, but a few of us were discussing earlier this concept of repentance as a translation of metanoia which at root speaks of a change of mind.

I was just tracking this word "repent" through history and when and why it began being the word used for the Greek word that means change of mind. "Repent" does not mean change of mind.

Also, this verse as quoted above sounds like being emotionally sorrowful produces repentance and then the word repent itself speaks of emotional sorrow. So, we have the sorrow issue working through this entire verse as translated in early reformation times.

But here's the issue:

• Repent:
  • The Greek has metanoia which speaks of a change of mind.
  • In the earliest Latin called the Vetus Latina it was being translated in at least 2 different ways and regionally which seems to show that religious practices were seeping into translations. One way was close to metanoia. Another was the concept of a moral action closer to Latin theology.
  • From there some of the Latin baggage re: "repentance" can be seen in articles like this one.
  • Some modern translators are trying to get back to "change the mind".
• RE: "sorrow"
  • The Greek has lupē which BDAG defines as pain of mind or spirit, grief, sorrow, affliction. A few other lexicons I glanced at focus more on this pain and don't mention sorrow.
  • This word in the LXX goes back to usage in Gen3:16-17 and the curse on the man & the woman. In the early KJV it's being translated as "sorrow". In newer translations as "pain" or "painful toil".
  • I suppose some will want to stay with being sorrowful, but this sense of pain in mind or spirit makes much more sense to me.
    • God cursed the man and the woman and the planet.
    • Men and women have been in pain of mind or spirit since then
    • This leads to a change of mind for salvation and who would afterward want to change their mind again and go back to the pain of mind or spirit 2Cor7:10?
    • I don't know about any of you but this pain in mind or spirit is one of the things that did lead me to the change of mind to believe in Christ.

When we look at all the "change of mind" verses, it's hard at times to stick with a version of sequence. To change the mind based upon new information is essentially to know and believe something different.

All this baggage of emotion and doing penance clouds the issue IMO.

In discussing things like this in the past with others who do translations, I've had several talks that centered around thoughts that the reformation from Romanism did not go far enough and we're still working at it after half a millennium. We retain a lot of baggage in our translations for many reasons at this point. And by "reformation" I'm not speaking of any ism. I speak only of translations consistent with the original language of the Text apart from all the isms and systems and without a care in the world about the amount of liturgy or hymns or anything else that we would need to be rid of or to change for proper language and thought.

“To change the mind based upon new information is essentially to know and believe something different.”

yes that’s why Jesus calls us to hear and believe the gospel that’s the true and correct information and accepting that new information believing is the very method that changes the mind .

My quote there about godly sorrow is in context of Paul’s two letters to the Corinthians regarding the sin they were sharing in and approving of in tbier chirch .

paul had caused them sorrow by his harsh forst letter calling them to rod themselves of the sin in thier church and chastising them for approving of and glorying in it . His harsh words to them in Corinthians 1 correcting them and calling then to repentance had caused them “godly sorrrow “

Have you ever done something wrong hurt someone’s feeling but didint realize you had done it ? But then when you find out “ wow I really hurt Sally’s feeling the other day “ then you feel terrible for what you had done ? Now because you’ve been made aware of it ?

That was the situation paul had heard on his travels about what was going on the sexual immorality in Corinth and that everyone was approving of it and accepting it . So he gave them a lashing in Corinthians 1 calling them to repentance in the second he’s addressing it

“Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:8-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

My point is gods word being preached is how he works on us . we have to listen to the word and it will change our minds and hearts . Tbey didint know they were in the wrong until paul wrote them and scolded them after they knew they were doing wrong they repented and became vehement about making sure they were clear of the matter and stopped it as paul commanded them to do


jesus and his apostles carry a witness to all people that can save us called the gospel . In it we will here his call to repentance and it will sometimes hurt our hearts to realize we’re doing wrong but accepting the truth of it leads to that godly sorrow that brings repentance

pauls second letter he’s forgiving thier sin and even the man who began and started the issues he’s telling them to now accept the man back . After they repented his anger went away and he then comforted the sorrow he had caused but didint regret it because it worked repentance in them

 

[sawdust]

I agree with this statement and I also believe this is the correct orthodox position and "Total Inability" is built on
>>>>>> out of context non-exegeted verses AND is completely outside of traditional evangelical thought.

I tend to go with a little leaven leavens the whole loaf and I see "saving faith being a gift" the start of the little leaven.

Total depravity is a true doctrine if it is taught correctly. Man is not born totally depraved but if the Lord never extended His grace? Then we all would become totally depraved and utterly wicked, there would be no choice in the matter.

Thankfully the Lord extends His grace before we even know we need it.

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

 

[Blain]

There never will be agreement. It's just the same thing over and over.

Yes and I suppose free will has something to do with it as well, but even so you would think that there would be some kind of agreement to put this to rest.

 

[Kroogz]

brightfame52 said:
False and backwards. A person cant spiritually hear the Gospel when spiritually dead, duh

False and illogical. If they are spiritually alive, they are saved and have no need of the Gospel.

 

[Mem]

Please read post 7,245. If this doesn't answer your question, please let me know.

Were you trying to hit two birds with one stone? I have to share an answer with Pilgramshope?! I see. I'm not worth the extra effort? Wow! I must be a really soft .

Ok, I can work with it. God presented Jonah with the decision, and with no foreknowledge of the fish, he had a choice between everyone in the boat's certain death or letting them throw him over to what, as far as any of them could see, was his certain death, and everyone in the boat knew that Jonah ('s disobedience), personally, was the reason of the storm. So, like Isaac, Jonah agreed to the (required) sacrifice. Then along comes the fish that spits him back onto dry ground and, presented again with the choice to go to Nineveh, surely Jonah had at least a better understanding of the result of fighting against God and so he goes, but still begrudgingly given he's still sulking under the sprout afterward.
Jonah's mission was in regard to declaring the message of God's intentions upon the city and his extension of mercy toward it contingent upon their repentance. Could they have refused? They saw their sworn enemy, that hated them with everything he had, come out of the depths of the sea with seaweed still clinging to the crack of his loincloth telling them that it pleased God to extend mercy toward them if they'd repent in sackcloth and ashes. Could they have said, "Ha! as if? @that?! Yes, if they were totally and absolutely incapable of reasoning that God is faithful to do as He says, even after being given such evidence of the lengths He will go in the effort to carry out His will?

Do not feel obligated to answer these question that follow as they are likely only rhetorical in nature as I wonder out loud.
Although it was God's intention, and I'll put it, rather than say 'to save Nineveh', I'll phrase it as 'not to destroy Ninevah' since history informs us that Ninevah is eventually destroyed. Was it God's intended 'purpose' in dealing with Nineveh at all to reveal His overarching plan to be realized in Christ?

 

[Cameron143]

we will never comprehend this truth in our present state ... even in new heaven/new earth I wonder if we will be able to comprehend for there is no beginning and no end to God's omniscience ... whereas we are finite beings. We were never in eternity past outside of God's foreknowing. Although we have everlasting life, even in new heaven/new earth, there will be a beginning of that new creation ... and there are verses in Scripture which indicate this existing heaven/earth will be changed as opposed to God bringing something out of nothing ...

Hebrews 1:10-12 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
.

Proverbs 25:2...the glory of God to conceal a thing and the honor of kings to search out a matter.

While I believe there are things of God that are unsearchable, who knows what God might reveal.

 

[studier]

fwiw ... I do not hold to the term "free will" ... we either believe or do not believe.

In response, I don't normally use the phrase "free will" other than to go along with some of these posts and threads. The "free" part has way too much philosophical baggage that comes into an already chaotic discussion.

Do you believe man has volition?

Do you believe volition is involved in suppressing truth?

Do you believe volition is involved in changing the mind and believing and obeying the Truth?

 

[HeIsHere]

Total depravity is a true doctrine if it is taught correctly. Man is not born totally depraved but if the Lord never extended His grace? Then we all would become totally depraved and utterly wicked, there would be no choice in the matter.

Thankfully the Lord extends His grace before we even know we need it.

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

I am not sure on this, scripture states we are born spiritually dead (spiritual separated from God) due to Adam's sin, can some people become totally depraved because of this yes.. we can call them psychopaths.
Perhaps you are speaking about Prevenient grace?

 

[studier]

I am not sure on this, scripture states we are born spiritually dead (spiritual separated from God)

Where does Scripture state this "spiritually dead"?

What does "spiritually dead" mean?

 

[brightfame52]

False and illogical. If they are spiritually alive, they are saved and have no need of the Gospel. They need the elementary doctrines now.

All things are possible for God. A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel when grace is applied and the Lord meets us with grace and truth at every turn. There is never a time when the Lord meets us with anything other than grace and truth.

How you lot can't see that you insist on being saved to be saved baffles me entirely.

Of course they have need of the Gospel if they are saved, for its the good news of their salvation, duh Thats wonderful news to find out you are saved.

Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now how is it YOUR SALVATION if you not saved yet and lost ? Think