Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Roughsoul1991]

That's because you're so duplicitous and love to talk out of both sides of your mouth. Your idea of God's efficacious grace is that He gave all mankind the "freedom" to choose Him or not choose him, which means the efficacy of God's grace (as you understand it) is the very reason the vast majority of the world has rejected the gospel and has already been condemned and is still hell-bound. I suppose all the helpless and hopeless souls in hell have God to thank for all eternity for such marvelous grace that put them there to suffer in torment forever -- grace that is supposed to reflect God's favor, approval and urgently needed assistance. With friends like your god who needs enemies?



Tell me: Has God ever purposed to actually save all mankind w/o exception?

What makes you think that what I bolded would be the basis for divine judgment? Here's a novel idea: How about their personal sins and their knowledge of their own sinfulness being the fundamental reasons for their judgment? Furthermore, God is not the author of anyone's sin (evil, wrongdoings, etc.) And sinners are not entitled to God's grace or mercy. These are His gifts to do with as He pleases.

My quote that you bolded,

If some are destined for evil then is it really just to judge them on something predetermined?

God wishes that all may be saved but of course there is an exception.

Unbelief in Christ.

But I agree with your whole statement. God's grace is a gift. He has made the gift open all who will accept it.

 

[Hakawaka]

Just glancing through this interpretive verse skipping narrative and so far this kind of stood out. Sounds synergistic.

The man had to wash his own eyes before he was rescued/saved?

Wouldn't the monergistic version be that Jesus just walked up and washed/cleansed him?

With the way these folks argue you could say the man gave himself his vision back. He saved himself.

Just like Naaman dipped himself into the Jordan river 7 times saving himself.

Just like the israelites brought down the walls of Jericho by

NOPE.

This is called FAITH. God tells you: Do this and I will do this. Believe and I will save you.

Thats not works salvation. Faith is not works Romans 4 says

 

[lrs68]

The free will crowd have zero verses saying the dead-in-trespasses person is free to choose.

I'm ripping both sides but only one side is claiming that if God makes a person understand they automatically become a believer and that is literally nowhere in the Bible anywhere.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." John 8 v 34 Not, only those who choose to sin or only atheists. Everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Romans 3 v 23 - all have sinned...
@TabinRivCA will like this one! .

 

[Magenta]

John 3 v 20-21 ~ Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.

 

[cv5]

What is "super-determinist" as opposed to just "determinist?"

The hardest of hard core TULIP-ites.

 

[cv5]

If some are destined for evil then is it really just to judge them on something predetermined?

That is precisely what Satan says. And then convinced the fallen angels of this by his wiles.

And tried to do the same thing to Adam and failed.

Any argument that accuses God of ANY attribute that is evil is......wrong.

Yet the super-determinists do it constantly non stop.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Man's will is set free by Christ. Do you really not see that? Scripture teaches that the whole world is under the power and influence of the devil. Is he influencing people to believe? Hardly. Captive to the will of the devil you see as freedom to choose God? How strange that is. Why do people always jump to either people are free to choose when they are enemies of and hostile to God or they are forced to believe??? Scripture says God enables people. Your contradiction is agreeing with man's depravity which is his inability. The Bible does teach that. Then you say man is able to choose before being set free. That with his wicked heat he decides to believe that which he is opposed to. That actually makes no sense and is what the free will crowd teaches and then they deny it. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. That is what the Bible teaches and it gets denied over and over and over again. Now we have members of the free will crowd telling us the none good only applies to atheists. How ridiculous is that? All have sinned and fall short. That includes every stripe of unbeliever. It is everyone.

from Romans 5 verse 10 / John 8 verses 31b-32 / Ephesians 5 verse 8 / 1 Thessalonians 5 verse 5 / Romans 6 verse 18 / John 8 verse 36 ~ While we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” You were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Man's will is set free by Christ. Do you really not see that? Scripture teaches that the whole world is under the power and influence of the devil. Is he influencing people to believe? Hardly. Captive to the will of the devil you see as freedom to choose God? How strange that is. Why do people always jump to either people are free to choose when they are enemies of and hostile to God or they are forced to believe???

But see that is the strange part if Christ on the topic of will sets the will free then when does He do it? Before calling unbelievers to believe or afterwards.

It doesn't make sense to call people to believe if they do not have the ability.

Scripture says God enables people.

Now here is where I see how God works in the free will of mankind to draw them to Himself.

Your contradiction is agreeing with man's depravity which is his inability. The Bible does teach that.

Not a contradiction. I believe in the depravity of man but the depravity is handled by God from birth. His invisible qualities, morality, and His Spirit drawing start from birth. He moved first to draw all people and give all people just opportunities to seek the Lord. God's workings in the inner man, fixes the total depravity issue.

Then you say man is able to choose before being set free. That with his wicked heat he decides to believe that which he is opposed to. That actually makes no sense and is what the free will crowd teaches and then they deny it.

Yes. Set free from the yoke of sin and death. Not from the slavery of the will. Meaning once indwelled by the Spirit they now can overcome sin and defeat death with future resurrection.

I've already shown examples of how OT saints without the indwelling were found righteous. God found Noah, but it doesn't say God made Noah righteous. Noah was simply following God through what had been passed down.

Being seen for Noah's righteous deeds was enough for God to fully reveal Himself but it was still the faith in God that saved him.

It makes sense as evident in scripture. A slave to sin is not the same as a slave of the mind. A slave may want freedom even if they are physically stuck in slavery which was the point of Paul saying be delighted in the law as his mind was willing but the flesh always failed.

A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. That is what the Bible teaches and it gets denied over and over and over again.

No argument there. Choice and belief are not a work of fruit. It is the condition that Christ Himself set for us to be atoned and justified. We accept what Christ has done on our behalf. The fruit comes after being reborn.

Now we have members of the free will crowd telling us the none good only applies to atheists. How ridiculous is that? All have sinned and fall short. That includes every stripe of unbeliever. It is everyone

Well idk what that means unless they were referring to how believers are seen as saints under the atonement and unbelievers are of course seen as sinners then I'd agree. Of course, under the atonement, we are still sinners but God only sees us through the lens of Christ

 

[Roughsoul1991]

That is precisely what Satan says. And then convinced the fallen angels of this by his wiles.

And tried to do the same thing to Adam and failed.

Any argument that accuses God of ANY attribute that is evil is......wrong.

Yet the super-determinists do it constantly non stop.

That is what is strange to me. To erase free will but still blame man for their sin. Doesn't make sense.

That would mean that God created the many as evil and few as good.

Then of course, did Satan have free will or was he created to reject God?

If we fail to harmonize the scriptures of choice and faithfulness with the scriptures of God's sovereignty then we either make God the devil or make God deistic.

 

[Magenta]

Not a contradiction. I believe in the depravity of man but the depravity is handled by God from birth. His invisible qualities, morality, and His Spirit drawing start from birth. He moved first to draw all people and give all people just opportunities to seek the Lord. God's workings in the inner man, fixes the total depravity issue.

What fixes the depravity issue is changing the heart. Actually it is replaced. That does NOT happen at birth.

Yes. Set free from the yoke of sin and death. Not from the slavery of the will. Meaning once
indwelled by the Spirit they now can overcome sin and defeat death with future resurrection.

Then that is not the free will of the natural man you are espousing, since only those made alive in Christ have the
freedom to choose. That is quite different. But we are slaves either way, first to sin, and then to righteousness.
Men in the OT were called righteous even as sinners. They were not being called to believe the gospel.
They had direct experience with God which some here call God being unfair.

 

[Ruftana]

It depends on how you define free will

 

[Hakawaka]

“But without faith it is impossible to please him:

for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

Very true. Now watch MagentaBot respond again with referencing the same verses already addresed many times.

Why would God ask people to SEEK after Him, why would God reward those that dilligently seek HIm, IF NO ONE can do it unless He enables them? He is infact rewarding something He himself does.

God is at war with his own decree in calvinism. The schizophrenic two wills of God

 

[Magenta]

It depends on how you define free will

Yes. Some treat it like choosing what colour of socks to wear has some bearing on the eternal fate of one's soul.

 

[Magenta]

Why would God ask people to SEEK after Him, why would God reward those that dilligently seek HIm, IF NO ONE can do it unless He enables them? He is infact rewarding something He himself does.

Scripture says which says that which you disagree with. Shame on you.

People seek Truth. Jesus is the embodiment of that. Hey, I have explained this to you before. Why so hateful?

 

[Hakawaka]

The free will crowd claims just keep getting more and more bizarre..

"Only atheists choose to sin." How do they arrive at such utter nonsense?

Except no one has said this. Quote it once again. How did you arrive at that false claim?

Why so hateful you ask, after refusing to answer the verses I posted and being mean yourself. WHEN will the verses be dealt with instead of spamming this same thing over and over again which no one ever said

 

[Magenta]

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Hakawaka]

Define who you think is "everyone" (or "all men") in 1Tim 2:4.

It means everyone. Not all kinds of men as you desperately try to make it say.

It would be a better argument if the context would say something like "Pray for kings, slaves, poor, rich, jews, gentiles" But it just says pray for kings and those in authority. So the "all kinds of men" interpretation is just DESPERATE and really weak sauce.

As is the James White argument of trying to say that the mediator cant be for the entire world or it would be universalism. Well luckily its not, its for those who believe. There ya go. ATonement made for all, only effectual to those who believe.

Simple 1,2,3. Everyone understood this until Augustine came along. Actually maybe even he understood it, there are hints of him understanding it, but alas.

 

[Magenta]

Not a contradiction. I believe in the depravity of man but the depravity is handled by God from birth. His invisible qualities, morality, and His Spirit drawing start from birth. He moved first to draw all people and give all people just opportunities to seek the Lord. God's workings in the inner man, fixes the total depravity issue.

What fixes the depravity issue is changing the heart. Actually it is replaced. That does NOT happen at birth.

Just adding on here: man cannot change his incurably wicked heart. That is something God does.

That bad tree... yeah... IMPOSSIBLE for it to bring forth good fruit. That really does include faith.

With the heart one believes. The circumcised heart. NOT the incurably wicked one.

 

[NightTwister]

The hardest of hard core TULIP-ites.

Show me on this doll where the TULIP hurt you.

 

[Magenta]

Show me on this doll where the TULIP hurt you.

He says God acting unilaterally makes Him an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their will.

He also says God raped Mary if He did not ask permission. Such blasphemies these people utter.

Truly disgusting.