Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

Scripture tells us there is only one faith (Eph 4:5) ... I do not believe there is a "human faith" as opposed to "godly faith" ... "faith" is "faith" ... inherent in all descendants of Adam.

On any given day, natural man and believers alike are constantly bombarded with myriad information which we mentally process ... we either believe the information or we do not. If/when we sincerely believe that which is not true, we (believer and unbeliever alike) will suffer the consequence.

The believer, however, has a standard of truth with which to test the information that comes our way and that which does not line up with Scripture can be rejected. Unbelievers, on the other hand, have only differing sources of man's intellectual reasoning, which is a mixed bag of truth / half truth / outright lies.

As I have already stated, I believe all mankind has faith and as we hear the Word of God, we trust, then believe (Eph 1:12-13), then God gives increase (1 Cor 3:7) ... He strengthens our faith. Therefore, we can be strong in faith as we believe more and more of the truth or we can remain weak in faith as we either do not believe the truth so God does not increase or we are ignorant of God's Word so we have no truth to believe.

It is so important to continuously read God's Word. The more of God's Word we know/believe, the more the Holy Spirit can bring to our remembrance during our days out in the world ... we can then filter that myriad information and quickly let go of what does not line up with Scripture.

Bottom line ... God giving increase to our faith if/when we believe His Word is all God, so no boasting on the part of the believer. God having provided faith within mankind is all God, so no boasting on the part of the believer. God has provided everything mankind needs in order to believe and the proper response is to believe and give thanks to the One Who has so graciously and benevolently bestowed upon mankind all He has given ... most importantly, Messiah ... the Lord Jesus Christ.





All believers were, at one point in their past, unbelievers. Thank God for believers who reach out to unbelievers. Someone reached out to me ... someone reached out to you ... someone took the time to help us and guide us until we were able to walk. I believe that was the Holy Spirit working in the believer and how the Holy Spirit continues to work ... from the person who first witnessed (planted) to others who continued to witness (watered) ... and then, as we believed, God brings increase into our hearts.

A verse that I have been thinking about recently is 2 Thes 2:11-12 ... speaking of end times and the revealing of the wicked one ...

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

clearly these are unbelievers ... how can unbelievers "believe a lie" if they have no faith with which to believe? The words "believe" in vs 11 and "believed" in vs 12 are translated from the Greek word pisteuō.

if, as some claim, God gives faith so the believer can then believe His Word ... does God give "faith" to these unbelievers so they can believe a lie? that makes absolutely no sense to me. I just believe all mankind has faith inherent within and all can believe truth ... and all can believe lies ... the more lies we believe, the worse off we are.

... more ramblings from the rambler ...
.

A couple observations & questions:

• Why do you see what sounds like a 2-step process of trust then faith in Eph1:12-13?
• 2Thes2:11-12 sounds to me like or similar to the hardening of the heart process in different words. Those who did not believe the truth but/rather were well-pleased with unrighteousness - God will send them operative power for wandering/error so they believe the lie.
  • God gave them the opportunities to believe the truth 2Thess2:11 - to welcome the love for truth that results in their salvation Thess2:10 > they did neither > God will thus send the energeia (which is basically just what it sounds like in English) to assist their unbelief.
  • I agree with what you say about their having the ability to believe error (also truth). They would not believe so God at some point enhances the energy of the deceit just for them.

Again, I enjoy your "ramblings".

 

[Rufus]

It staggers my imagination that you can't think past your limitations to the One who is omniscient and consider He knows how a baby would respond if given the opportunity to hear the Gospel along with all those who maybe had not heard the name of Jesus due to a lack of missionaries. Btw, no-one in the OT heard the name of Jesus, should we write them off too?

Your argument assumes that foreknowledge is nothing more than prescience, which it is not! It is divine prerogative. Consider Jacob and Esau. God elected one for salvation and the other for reprobation without any regard whatsoever for their behavior in life.

Also see Act 2:22-23 and notice the logical order of the words in the phrase "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God". God's purpose or plan is the basis for his [fore]knowledge, since God does not acquire knowledge as we do. If God has to receive the counsel of men through cosmic crystal ball gazing, He would not be omniscient. Rather, the Potter would be just like his clay pots since we mortals have to acquire knowledge.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But one who is in Christ doesn't have to be bound to the Romans 7 scenario. Romans 7 is describing life without Christ which is why he calls out at the end "who will save me". The Christian is already saved. In Romans 7 there is no option except to walk after the flesh. The Christian has the power of the Living God at work within him. He can walk after the Spirit and be free. Paul is contrasting the unsaved life in Romans 7 to the saved life in Romans 8. "Now, therefore" Rom.8:1 As they say, what's the therefore there for? Now (that you are saved) you are no longer bound to the flesh as you were before your salvation. Romans 7 has no hope until Christ "steps up to the plate". To say a Christian is in that same hopeless situation is sad, to say the least.

Yes I think also people don’t grasp it wasnt always like that for humanity but we became like we are.

for instance cain the firstborn man

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

He isn’t being told “ you have no choice in doing good or evil “ he’s being told choose to do the good and you’ll be accepted but if you don’t do what’s good sin will have you ….but you must rule over sin. “

or enoch who were told “walked with God and never died “ or noah who was a righteous and perfect man according to Gods word.

“These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It wasn’t always like this which later became the situation

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

man became that way by rejecting Gods guidance and word. Paul is speaking about salvation and being redeemed from that fallen state that happened over time and was the case when Jesus came to redeem us from iniquity and sin and reconcile us to our relationship with God

 

[Rufus]

reneweddaybyday said:


Scripture tells us there is only one faith (Eph 4:5) ... I do not believe there is a "human faith" as opposed to "godly faith" ... "faith" is "faith" ... inherent in all descendants of Adam.

Your biblical proof for your claim would be where in the bible precisely?

 

[Rufus]

The annointed messengers sent to share the invitation of the lord with all creation ? . Some people dont accept the invite of the gospel it’s not because God excluded them from it and only invited a few

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all creation covers everyone ….

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

all men covers everyone

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s there for anyone and everyone but many people reject the message that’s good and righteous and pure because they love dwelling in the shadows so they stay away from the light they do t want to have thier deeds reproved they want to continue in them ….

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we enjoy the pleasures of sin we’re going to not come to the lord and listen to what he said it’s like bails on a chalkboard to hear this ….if I’m loving my sinful life and sinful deeds

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Some addicts want to get clean so they act upon that and go to the places that can get them clean . others don’t want to lose thier high life and they avoid the things that can get them clean because they love the high.

sinners are the same way some sinners don’t like that they tell lies and cheat or how they treat others it bugs them a lot they actually want to change a lot about them that they don’t like

others really enjoy indulging and find thier groove and pursue what they find that they love in the world money , possession, power , lust ect when they hear the lord calling us to repentance and upright living they simply don’t want to hear it they don’t want Jesus judging them they don’t want to be told “ you can’t keep living in sin you need to repent now that you have an atonement “ they want to live thier life tbier way pursuing thier own lusts and desires

its not Gods fault that they find those things better than the things he promises anyone that believes the gospel they’d rather live thoer short lives indulging at least for now they do ….

others hate thier sin it causes them grief and heartache within makes thier soul sick and they want to be free they want to be loved they want a new beginning these type of people respond to the message

people who want to serve sin and lust and themselves determining right and wrong tbier self …these folks will reject the things Jesus taught they don’t want to hear it frankly they have better things to engage in not gods fault though thier own decisions are the issue, thier proven lack of managing free Will for the good and not evil not thier lack of having it.

All your "proof texts" are taken out of context and, therefore, fail to prove what you claim.

 

[Rufus]

if he does not share the gospel with everyone. at least in their hearts.

then he can not judge them rightly.

they would by a perfect judge, be released by ignorance. You can not judge a person for unbelief, when they had no ability or opportunity to believe.

What nonsense! Even in the real world, no one is acquitted of wrongdoing by appealing to ignorance of the law.

And the Judge of all the earth would be perfectly fair and just to judge all sinners regardless of ability, since He is not morally culpable for A&E's sin. Nor is He morally culpable if no one ever had the opportunity to believe. How is God indebted to sinners? What have sinners done to make their Creator indebted to them (Rom 11:35)? And how can grace be grace if God is morally obligated to provide all with the "opportunity" for salvation?

 

[Magenta]

What nonsense! Even in the real world, no one is acquitted of wrongdoing by appealing to ignorance of the law.

One of the first things you learn in law is, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Although in the stupidity of today's political climate, what gets a pass is truly horrendous.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What nonsense! Even in the real world, no one is acquitted of wrongdoing by appealing to ignorance of the law.

lol.. I said if they were not given the ability to repent because of ignorance.. Not of the law. Of grace

And the Judge of all the earth would be perfectly fair and just to judge all sinners regardless of ability, since He is not morally culpable for A&E's sin. Nor is He morally culpable if no one ever had the opportunity to believe. How is God indebted to sinners? What have sinners done to make their Creator indebted to them (Rom 11:35)? And how can grace be grace if God is morally obligated to provide all with the "opportunity" for salvation?

No he will not. not only this,. He will not have prevented another rebellion in the future. if anything, he will have caused a greater risk that their will be one.


I am sorry, But your belief tears down the integrity and morality of my savor.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

One of the first things you learn in law is, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

this is not ignorance of the law

I said they had no ability to repent of being guilty and seek forgives.

try reading for once. and stop assuming and acting like a child!!

as my mother used to say, if you have nothing good to day. don't say it

 

[BillyBob]

Gen 3:6

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

It seems that man has forever had a desire to be more like God. To be in control of his own destiny. To think more highly of himself then he ought.
This problem has not gone away. Those who are in Christ still struggle with wanting to do things their way, but thankfully the Spirit works in them to repent in dust and ashes. Christ will not let them slip through his fingers, but will hold them in his everlasting arms and present them spotless to the Father.
This topic simply asks how do we become a child of God. Was it because we turned in belief [a work on our part], or did God seek out His chosen people and enable them to come to Him [a work on His part]?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Gen 3:6

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

It seems that man has forever had a desire to be more like God. To be in control of his own destiny. To think more highly of himself then he ought.
This problem has not gone away. Those who are in Christ still struggle with wanting to do things their way, but thankfully the Spirit works in them to repent in dust and ashes. Christ will not let them slip through his fingers, but will hold them in his everlasting arms and present them spotless to the Father.
This topic simply asks how do we become a child of God. Was it because we turned in belief [a work on our part], or did God seek out His chosen people and enable them to come to Him [a work on His part]?

I have stated this before.

If I am in a burning building. and I am hopeless. and a rescuer is sent, and tells me to allow them to save me, and in faith I let them

i did not save myself, it is not my work

If I am out in the ocean in the middle of a hurrican because my ship sank. and a rescuer comes, and asks if I will let him save me. and I say yes in faith they can.

i did not save myself on a work of my own

When the children of Israel were bitten with snakes. and unable to save themselves. God sent a savior to them ( a bronze serpent) when Moses told them to look at the serpent and they would be saved. They did not save themselves by any work they did. Moses did the work. But God did the healing

so to say anyone who is drawn by God. and comes to the end of themselves as Jesus required (became poor in spirit) and called out for God to save them because they can not save themselves. Then it was not their work that saved them, it was God.
For by grace I have been saved.

thats the power of salvation. Its Gods grace based on his work in all he did, and is doing,

But God will not force us to receive it, It is THROUGH faith (just like those who looked to the serpent of Moses) were not forced to look. but their salvation depending on them trusting God. and not self.

and again, Paul makes it clear. it is not of works. lest we boast (Paul seperates faith and works, and declairs our faith is not a work)

so to keep falsly accusing people like you all continue to do with this lie.. Just hurts your own case.

You will not convince people when you continue to falsly accuse them of doing something they do not do.. especially when what they say (my faith is not a work) is found in scripture (its the work of God we believe. If we work we incur debt not grace. if it is grace it is not of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

 

[Rufus]

I was told on here when I asked the same question. That God revealed himself though creation and all the natural wonders. To those who didnt hear the gospel. So they are still without excuse.

Even more importantly and more directly to the point is what God has revealed intuitively to all mankind, i.e. the works of His law which works in conjunction with man's conscience (Rom 2:12-16). Every human being knows he's a sinner! But because of man's equally as innate spiritual blindness he does not know where he is going (Jn 12:35). How can the blind from birth not be totally lost in their pitch black darkness?

 

[Magenta]

And if IFs and BUTs were candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas, too. You're going to argue against Gods' fairness on pure conjecture??? Can you provide any biblical text of people wherein they "cried out for God to save them" and He responded by flipping them the bird?

My Bible say everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

After this is brought up then various meanings of what it is to be saved get discussed.

Saved does not always mean eternal salvation we are told. Well, I can see that to a point. I cried out to God for help and was delivered from the snare of drug addiction and alcoholism, being directed to a program where I embarked on a path, the sole aim of which was to develop and maintain a personal relationship with God. That same God I did not believe in. I completely lost the desire to use mind and mood altering substances, thus I was saved from my self-destructive ways that encompassed those means. But even that was not my first divine encounter. Nope. Six years previously at the end of my marriage I had attended a neighbourhood church for the screening of the movie based on the life of Christ from the gospel of Luke, because I was curious about Who Jesus was, and in a great deal of emotional pain. I have shared about this a number of times over the course of my ten years here. A couple of posts about it can be found here and here, if you care to read any more about it. Words barely do it justice. But even having divine encounters did not immediately move me to belief and faith. Then we are told that those who are said to be "not good" only refers to atheists but I can assure you that at no time in the 49 (almost 50) years before my conversion did I ever identify as an atheist.

 

[Rufus]

I have stated this before.

If I am in a burning building. and I am hopeless. and a rescuer is sent, and tells me to allow them to save me, and in faith I let them

i did not save myself, it is not my work

If I am out in the ocean in the middle of a hurrican because my ship sank. and a rescuer comes, and asks if I will let him save me. and I say yes in faith they can.

i did not save myself on a work of my own

When the children of Israel were bitten with snakes. and unable to save themselves. God sent a savior to them ( a bronze serpent) when Moses told them to look at the serpent and they would be saved. They did not save themselves by any work they did. Moses did the work. But God did the healing

so to say anyone who is drawn by God. and comes to the end of themselves as Jesus required (became poor in spirit) and called out for God to save them because they can not save themselves. Then it was not their work that saved them, it was God.
For by grace I have been saved.

thats the power of salvation. Its Gods grace based on his work in all he did, and is doing,

But God will not force us to receive it, It is THROUGH faith (just like those who looked to the serpent of Moses) were not forced to look. but their salvation depending on them trusting God. and not self.

and again, Paul makes it clear. it is not of works. lest we boast (Paul seperates faith and works, and declairs our faith is not a work)

so to keep falsly accusing people like you all continue to do with this lie.. Just hurts your own case.

You will not convince people when you continue to falsly accuse them of doing something they do not do.. especially when what they say (my faith is not a work) is found in scripture (its the work of God we believe. If we work we incur debt not grace. if it is grace it is not of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Oh...so that is what rescuers do when someone is in dire straits and helpless: They must first seek the permission of the helpless? Is that what the Good Samaritan did when he rescued the half-dead crime victim? Or is that what Jesus did to the blind man in John 9: Sought the guy's permission before He healed him? Or what happens if the helpless victim is unconscious? Should the paramedics or doctors wait until he regains consciousness before they work on him and try to save his life?

 

[Magenta]

Even more importantly and more directly to the point is what God has revealed intuitively to all mankind, i.e. the works of His law which works in conjunction with man's conscience (Rom 2:12-16). Every human being knows he's a sinner! But because of man's equally as innate spiritual blindness he does not know where he is going (Jn 12:35). How can the blind from birth not be totally lost in their pitch black darkness?

They love the darkness, and are defined as darkness itself. Scripture says darkness cannot comprehend the light. But free
willers disagree. The sinner, a slave to sin according to Jesus though again FWers disagree, refuses to come into the light.

It is Jesus Who sets us free, not any decision to believe the foolishness we hear when the gospel is preached.

 

[Rufus]

My Bible say everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

After this is brought up then various meanings of what it is to be saved get discussed.

Saved does not always mean eternal salvation we are told. Well, I can see that to a point. I cried out to God for help and was delivered from the snare of drug addiction and alcoholism, being directed to a program where I embarked on a path, the sole aim of which was to develop and maintain a personal relationship with God. That same God I did not believe in. I completely lost the desire to use mind and mood altering substances, thus I was saved from my self-destructive ways that encompassed those means. But even that was not my first divine encounter. Nope. Six years previously at the end of my marriage I had attended a neighbourhood church for the screening of the movie based on the life of Christ from the gospel of Luke, because I was curious about Who Jesus was, and in a great deal of emotional pain. I have shared about this a number of times over the course of my ten years here. A couple of posts about it can be found here and here, if you care to read any more about it. Words barely do it justice. But even having divine encounters did not immediately move me to belief and faith. Then we are told that those who are said to be "not good" only refers to atheists but I can assure you that at no time in the 49 years before my conversion did I ever identify as an atheist.

That's because God works in all manner of different ways. Plus salvation itself is a process of sanctification which in turn leads to obedience to the truth. I, too, experienced something very similar with my salvation experience but it wasn't quite as long a period as yours -- a couple of years or so from when I actually responded positively to His drawing grace.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Oh...so that is what rescuers do when someone is in dire straits and helpless:

the person is always free to resist. When a rescue swimmer goes after a person and I am sure a fireman, If the person resists. it can actually cause harm and or death too the rescuer.

Jesus also in john 3 shows he wants us to ask also..

They must first seek the permission of the helpless? Is that what the Good Samaritan did when he rescued the half-dead crime victim? Or is that what Jesus did to the blind man in John 9: Sought the guy's permission before He healed him? Or what happens if the helpless victim is unconscious? Should the paramedics or doctors wait until he regains consciousness before they work on him and try to save his life?

Fight it my friend, Fight it.

respond to the examples. don't try to mock them

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That's because God works in all manner of different ways. Plus salvation itself is a process of sanctification which in turn leads to obedience to the truth.

Sanctification is a lifetime process and we sill will not be fully sanctified

I, too, experienced something very similar with my salvation experience but it wasn't quite as long a period as yours -- a couple of years or so from when I actually responded positively to His drawing grace.

so God worked on you for a couple of years before you responded.

sounds like you were given free will and eventually, with the work of God. responded and was saved

 

[Rufus]

lol.. I said if they were not given the ability to repent because of ignorance.. Not of the law. Of grace

No he will not. not only this,. He will not have prevented another rebellion in the future. if anything, he will have caused a greater risk that their will be one.


I am sorry, But your belief tears down the integrity and morality of my savor.

So, God is indebted to save sinners or provide opportunities for their salvation? On what judicial basis did God incur this debt, which of course would contradict Rom 11?

And ignorance of law applies with equal force to ignorance of grace since every man intuitively knows he's a sinner (a morally imperfect human being). In fact, that make him even more culpable to judgment than someone ignorant of a law because he doesn't know what the law says or that a certain law even exists to cover his particular situation.

 

[fredoheaven]

No sorry I wasn't clear. I meant what is a FWer but now I get it. Free Willers.

I have repented of that. Salvation is of the Lord

Acts 16:31 KJV — And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

How is believing in Christ become a work? Is not your choice of repenting of not responding to the gospel is a determining factor whether one is saved or unsaved?
Anyway, this is your right. Thanks