Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Jackson129 said:
Fairness is not an attribute i will agree that righteousness is for sure. But what are the attributes of righteousness? Is Fairness not one of them?
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Cam likely used that word because HeIsHere has said multiple times that God is not fair.

As in, it would be unfair of God if He were to... and then she names something He did many many times in the Bible.

Whereas Him doing that is actually keeping a promise He made.
 
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Jackson129 said:
Fairness is not an attribute i will agree that righteousness is for sure. But what are the attributes of righteousness? Is Fairness not one of them?
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If you believe fair means just and impartial, then sure. But if you mean by fair equal treatment, then no. I think most people's understanding of fairness has to do with equal treatment.
 
You list off things like poor/wealthy, sick/healthy oppressed/free. Those are things of this world. God is no respecter of persons. He dosent care if you are the richest man in the world or the poorest. When it comes to our soul He give us all the equal opportunity to save it when he sacrificed his son for the whole world. Thats as fair as you can get in the big scheme of things. In the things that really matter
 
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Magenta said:
Cam likely used that word because HeIsHere has said multiple times that God is not fair.

As in, it would be unfair of God if He were to... and then she names something He did many many times in the Bible.

Whereas Him doing that is actually keeping a promise He made.
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From what I can gather they are saying your doctrine is portraying God as not fair. Unless I missed a post which is possible.
 
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Jackson129 said:
You list off things like poor/wealthy, sick/healthy oppressed/free. Those are things of this world. God is no respecter of persons. He dosent care if you are the richest man in the world or the poorest. When it comes to our soul He give us all the equal opportunity to save it when he sacrificed his son for the whole world. Thats as fair as you can get in the big scheme of things. In the things that really matter
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As I said, God is the one who determines the circumstances of our lives. He hasn't dealt with humanity equitably. He allows many of the wicked to prosper while the godly suffer. Is this fair to you? It's not to me. But this doesn't mean God is acting unrighteously.
 
Cameron143 said:
As I said, God is the one who determines the circumstances of our lives. He hasn't dealt with humanity equitably. He allows many of the wicked to prosper while the godly suffer. Is this fair to you? It's not to me. But this doesn't mean God is acting unrighteously.
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It is fair to me in the sence of i dont know God's plan for every single human being. There are evil people who prosper and give money to charity for no other reasons than virtue signaling and tax write offs. Then at the end of the day some guy prays for food and gets s sandwich because of it. Thanks God and becomes a believer. There are godly people who suffer who are then brought closer to God. People around them notice thier hope and ask where it comes from. Then maybe 5 or 10 more lost sheep come home.
 
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Jackson129 said:
From what I can gather they are saying your doctrine is portraying God as not fair. Unless I missed a post which is possible.
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You have missed a lot. She specifically has said it would be unfair of God
to do what the Bible shows Him doing over and over and over again.
My doctrine? Please. I post Scripture and I get falsely accused of all manner of things.
It would help if people acknowledge what the Bible says. But they often don't.
FWers contradict and outright deny what the Bible says over and over and over again.
When they are not doing that they are rewriting certain passages to suit THEIR doctrine.
 
Rufus said:
The transitive verb "faith" is synonymous with belief. And the noun "faith" has a few definitions that uses the term "belief". It appears you're trying to create a false dichotomy between faith and belief.

And on on what side does "trust" fall on: faith, belief or both?
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Go read @Roughsoul1991 post#4176 it will explain things better than I can.

As I believe faith is from the word of God, I'm pretty sure He trusts in His own word. :)

And if you believe something to be true but don't trust it to be true, are you really believing or just taking a stab in the dark?

It appears you're not really giving much thought to what I say because you think I'm wrong before you even read it?
 
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Jackson129 said:
It is fair to me in the sence of i dont know God's plan for every single human being. There are evil people who prosper and give money to charity for no other reasons than virtue signaling and tax write offs. Then at the end of the day some guy prays for food and gets s sandwich because of it. Thanks God and becomes a believer. There are godly people who suffer who are then brought closer to God. People around them notice thier hope and ask where it comes from. Then maybe 5 or 10 more lost sheep come home.
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Now you are changing the topic. We know that all things work for the good of Christians. That doesn't change the fact that God deals with people unequally. And that's not fair. But it's not unrighteous. And while it may be unfair that God doesn't share the gospel with everyone, neither is this unrighteous.
 
Cameron143 said:
Now you are changing the topic. We know that all things work for the good of Christians. That doesn't
change the fact that God deals with people unequally. And that's not fair. But it's not unrighteous. And
while it may be unfair that God doesn't share the gospel with everyone, neither is this unrighteous.
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Isaiah-Psalm-Psalm-Proverbs-Ephesians-Romans-Ephesians.png

The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Isaiah 14 verse 24 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the purposes of His heart to all generations. Psalm 33 verse 11 Our God is in heaven; He does as He pleases. Psalm 115 verse 3 Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. Proverbs 19 verse 21 In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8 verses 28-30 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5
 
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Cameron143 said:
If you believe fair means just and impartial, then sure. But if you mean by fair equal treatment, then no. I think most people's understanding of fairness has to do with equal treatment.
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I think that may well be true in the minds of the more recent generations as they have been inculcated with "equal outcome" as being fair, but for me and my generation (and older) who were raised under "equal opportunity", we see fair as being given impartial treatment and being free to succeed or fail on our merits or lack thereof.

In respect to the Gospel and those who, to our knowledge, have never heard it especially due to their age? God was fair when He manifested the truth to the reprobate in Rom.1:19. If He revealed himself to the worst of humanity, why should we consider He has not revealed Himself to the least culpable?

Ultimately, salvation from death rests on Who knows us, not on how well we know Him.
 
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Jackson129 said:
From what I can gather they are saying your doctrine is portraying God as not fair. Unless I missed a post which is possible.
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This is what I wrote, I am reiterating things that were stated to me. smh.

HeIsHere said:
To be fair it is the "god" of Calvinism that people believe is unjust, and rightly so, not the God of scripture.
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HeIsHere said:
The logical conclusion of the God must regenerate first means that God withholds salvation from some, to be quite honest I find that view abhorrent but not the people who hold to it, they are just misguided, sadly.

And sadly the talking points are always the same, God is thrice holy, God is sovereign, God does not have to be fair, we are all born condemned etc., etc.,

These are not good answers to the problem, this God who chooses some and leaves other in their sin with no way out is >>>> morally ambivalent and un-tenably arbitrary.

"God ways are not are ways" and "it is a mystery" are not answers because truth is coherent not incoherent.
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HeIsHere said:
This is what I wrote, I am reiterating things that were stated to me. smh.
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Not true. You have multiple times claimed that it would be unfair of God to reveal Himself to one person in any way that was different to how He reveals Himself to another (whereas the Bible is full of such incidents) and you have further claimed a number of times that such revelations are not necessary and you have FURTHER tried to shame people who have had personal revelatory experiences of God.
 
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sawdust said:
I think that may well be true in the minds of the more recent generations as they have been inculcated with "equal outcome" as being fair, but for me and my generation (and older) who were raised under "equal opportunity", we see fair as being given impartial treatment and being free to succeed or fail on our merits or lack thereof.

In respect to the Gospel and those who, to our knowledge, have never heard it especially due to their age? God was fair when He manifested the truth to the reprobate in Rom.1:19. If He revealed himself to the worst of humanity, why should we consider He has not revealed Himself to the least culpable?

Ultimately, salvation from death rests on Who knows us, not on how well we know Him.
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I agree with the first and last paragraphs, and particularly like the third. But God manifesting Himself through creation, and even conscience, is very different from His direct manifestation of Himself in salvation. While I have no problem with God doing so apart from His word and even believe He has done so, I don't in the main believe this is His modus operandi. For me, it staggers the imagination that significant numbers of people who never heard the gospel were saved. If someone wants to believe otherwise, I have no problem with it.
 
Mem said:
I'm going to convert to Calvinism just so I can tell everybody, "You're scum of the earth and God hates you, so, you can go to hell." I mean, there's a very good chance that just about everyone will believe me.
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And be sure to learn how to lie as well... oh wait, it is all fabrication.
 
HeIsHere said:
You have no way of knowing this.
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It staggers the imagination that large swaths of people who left no traces of Christianity either with artifacts or writings actually received the gospel. While I cannot say this with 100% certainty, I can say it with a high degree of certainty.
Every culture on earth has some form of religion. And anthropologists have studied these cultures concerning the various aspects of those religions. Evidence would exist in those cultures if the God of glory made Himself known.
 
Cameron143 said:
I agree with the first and last paragraphs, and particularly like the third. But God manifesting Himself through creation, and even conscience, is very different from His direct manifestation of Himself in salvation. While I have no problem with God doing so apart from His word and even believe He has done so, I don't in the main believe this is His modus operandi. For me, it staggers the imagination that significant numbers of people who never heard the gospel were saved. If someone wants to believe otherwise, I have no problem with it.
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It staggers my imagination that you can't think past your limitations to the One who is omniscient and consider He knows how a baby would respond if given the opportunity to hear the Gospel along with all those who maybe had not heard the name of Jesus due to a lack of missionaries. Btw, no-one in the OT heard the name of Jesus, should we write them off too?
 
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