Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

It staggers my imagination that you can't think past your limitations to the One who is omniscient and consider He knows how a baby would respond if given the opportunity to hear the Gospel along with all those who maybe had not heard the name of Jesus due to a lack of missionaries. Btw, no-one in the OT heard the name of Jesus, should we write them off too?

They knew of a coming Messiah. Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced in it. I think they understood more than many think.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

One would reasonably and logically think that since FWers claim that the Son died for all men w/o exception that Christ would have commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all men w/o exception.

The annointed messengers sent to share the invitation of the lord with all creation ? . Some people dont accept the invite of the gospel it’s not because God excluded them from it and only invited a few

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all creation covers everyone ….

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

all men covers everyone

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s there for anyone and everyone but many people reject the message that’s good and righteous and pure because they love dwelling in the shadows so they stay away from the light they do t want to have thier deeds reproved they want to continue in them ….

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we enjoy the pleasures of sin we’re going to not come to the lord and listen to what he said it’s like bails on a chalkboard to hear this ….if I’m loving my sinful life and sinful deeds

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Some addicts want to get clean so they act upon that and go to the places that can get them clean . others don’t want to lose thier high life and they avoid the things that can get them clean because they love the high.

sinners are the same way some sinners don’t like that they tell lies and cheat or how they treat others it bugs them a lot they actually want to change a lot about them that they don’t like

others really enjoy indulging and find thier groove and pursue what they find that they love in the world money , possession, power , lust ect when they hear the lord calling us to repentance and upright living they simply don’t want to hear it they don’t want Jesus judging them they don’t want to be told “ you can’t keep living in sin you need to repent now that you have an atonement “ they want to live thier life tbier way pursuing thier own lusts and desires

its not Gods fault that they find those things better than the things he promises anyone that believes the gospel they’d rather live thoer short lives indulging at least for now they do ….

others hate thier sin it causes them grief and heartache within makes thier soul sick and they want to be free they want to be loved they want a new beginning these type of people respond to the message

people who want to serve sin and lust and themselves determining right and wrong tbier self …these folks will reject the things Jesus taught they don’t want to hear it frankly they have better things to engage in not gods fault though thier own decisions are the issue, thier proven lack of managing free Will for the good and not evil not thier lack of having it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It staggers my imagination that you can't think past your limitations to the One who is omniscient and consider He knows how a baby would respond if given the opportunity to hear the Gospel along with all those who maybe had not heard the name of Jesus due to a lack of missionaries. Btw, no-one in the OT heard the name of Jesus, should we write them off too?

“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭26:19‬ ‭

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he sure didn’t

 

[sawdust]

They knew of a coming Messiah. Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced in it. I think they understood more than many think.

You missed my point.

You're the one claiming if one doesn't hear the Gospel they can't be saved. Try preaching the Gospel without mentioning the name of Jesus. The fact is, as you point out, people were saved without the preaching of the Gospel. God is not callous as to judge us on what we never received. He is able to know what choices we would make given different circumstances.

 

[HeIsHere]

You missed my point.

You're the one claiming if one doesn't hear the Gospel they can't be saved. Try preaching the Gospel without mentioning the name of Jesus. The fact is, as you point out, people were saved without the preaching of the Gospel. God is not callous as to judge us on what we never received. He is able to know what choices we would make given different circumstances.

This is the rationale used for the doctrine of limited atonement.

 

[Cameron143]

You missed my point.

You're the one claiming if one doesn't hear the Gospel they can't be saved. Try preaching the Gospel without mentioning the name of Jesus. The fact is, as you point out, people were saved without the preaching of the Gospel. God is not callous as to judge us on what we never received. He is able to know what choices we would make given different circumstances.

I never claimed one must hear the gospel to be saved. I did say that in the main God employs the gospel to accomplish salvation.
I hear the argument that because God knows what choices people will make, then He will not send the gospel if He knows it will be rejected. But Jesus and the disciples shared the gospel and it was widely rejected. So I don't understand that argument. It is actually contrary to the command God gave for the gospel to go to the whole world.
I also hear the argument that God doesn't judge on things we don't receive, but all mankind was judged in Adam without any action on our part. So God does judge as He wills. Can you share a verse that says God doesn't judge on what we haven't received?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I appreciate the "just some thoughts" and thought they were cohesive.

If I were to summarize re: faith vs. belief, it seems you see them as synonymous and that the important issue (in regard to God) is the content - the object - of faith/belief (per your statement I highlighted and the next 2 statements).

Correct?

Scripture tells us there is only one faith (Eph 4:5) ... I do not believe there is a "human faith" as opposed to "godly faith" ... "faith" is "faith" ... inherent in all descendants of Adam.

On any given day, natural man and believers alike are constantly bombarded with myriad information which we mentally process ... we either believe the information or we do not. If/when we sincerely believe that which is not true, we (believer and unbeliever alike) will suffer the consequence.

The believer, however, has a standard of truth with which to test the information that comes our way and that which does not line up with Scripture can be rejected. Unbelievers, on the other hand, have only differing sources of man's intellectual reasoning, which is a mixed bag of truth / half truth / outright lies.

As I have already stated, I believe all mankind has faith and as we hear the Word of God, we trust, then believe (Eph 1:12-13), then God gives increase (1 Cor 3:7) ... He strengthens our faith. Therefore, we can be strong in faith as we believe more and more of the truth or we can remain weak in faith as we either do not believe the truth so God does not increase or we are ignorant of God's Word so we have no truth to believe.

It is so important to continuously read God's Word. The more of God's Word we know/believe, the more the Holy Spirit can bring to our remembrance during our days out in the world ... we can then filter that myriad information and quickly let go of what does not line up with Scripture.

Bottom line ... God giving increase to our faith if/when we believe His Word is all God, so no boasting on the part of the believer. God having provided faith within mankind is all God, so no boasting on the part of the believer. God has provided everything mankind needs in order to believe and the proper response is to believe and give thanks to the One Who has so graciously and benevolently bestowed upon mankind all He has given ... most importantly, Messiah ... the Lord Jesus Christ.

I also like what you said about the unbeliever.

All believers were, at one point in their past, unbelievers. Thank God for believers who reach out to unbelievers. Someone reached out to me ... someone reached out to you ... someone took the time to help us and guide us until we were able to walk. I believe that was the Holy Spirit working in the believer and how the Holy Spirit continues to work ... from the person who first witnessed (planted) to others who continued to witness (watered) ... and then, as we believed, God brings increase into our hearts.

A verse that I have been thinking about recently is 2 Thes 2:11-12 ... speaking of end times and the revealing of the wicked one ...

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

clearly these are unbelievers ... how can unbelievers "believe a lie" if they have no faith with which to believe? The words "believe" in vs 11 and "believed" in vs 12 are translated from the Greek word pisteuō.

if, as some claim, God gives faith so the believer can then believe His Word ... does God give "faith" to these unbelievers so they can believe a lie? that makes absolutely no sense to me. I just believe all mankind has faith inherent within and all can believe truth ... and all can believe lies ... the more lies we believe, the worse off we are.

... more ramblings from the rambler ...
.

 

[Komentaja]

There's always tension between God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility. Hence, we will never understand fully exactly what happens when God's will intercepts with man's. But we do know from scripture that when they do intersect man's will is always in sync (compatible) with God's. Man always willingly complies with God's will. We see this in Gen 20 with Abimelech when God protected Sarah from this pagan king; we see it with Joseph and his wicked brothers who did evil against him which was God's will; we see it with Pharaoh when God hardened his heart so that God would be glorified; we see this ultimately with Jesus when both the Gentiles and Jews conspired together to murder him, which was all according to God's plan (Acts 4), etc.

Re Ezek 22:30, Yes God could have raised up someone to stand in the gap but he didn't. Quite possibly He didn't because there wasn't even one righteous man in Jerusalem. What I see happening in this passage is two things: God was speaking rhetorically. He was alluding back to the time these Jews' ancestors at Mt. Horeb created the golden calf and worshiped it, which angered God so much that he threatened to destroy the entire nation and start from scratch again with Moses. But Moses (a type of Christ) offered to "stand in the gap" between God's fierce anger and the objects of his anger (Ex 32:10-14; Ps 106:23). Of course, God refused and wound up punishing a large number of Israelites anyway.

The other thing I see is that God could have also been looking to the future when the Son of Man would one day come to this earth to "stand in the gap" between his Father and his Father's elect. While no one was able to redeem the Jerusalem here below, the Son of Man successfully redeemed the Jerusalem above. So...when the day comes that this actually comes to past at the Parousia, we will all be filled with praise, thanksgiving and worship for the Man who sits at the right hand of His father since He stood in the gap between the Father and the New Jerusalem (which is actually Christ's Church).

I believe God rejected Moses' brave offer because the prophet was not qualified to offer himself as a "redeemer". As pious and holy as Moses was, he was still a sinner and the price of ransom is exceedingly high! Consider this passage:

Ps 49:7-9
7 No man can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for him —
8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough —
9 that he should live on forever
and not see decay.
NIV

Hope this helps...

It does, thank you. I enjoyed your Christ-centered response. I believe that is the correct view. Are there any secret handshakes I should know about?

I have never before changed my mind over something based on internet forums. There is a first for everything.

 

[Komentaja]

You have missed a lot. She specifically has said it would be unfair of God
to do what the Bible shows Him doing over and over and over again.
My doctrine? Please. I post Scripture and I get falsely accused of all manner of things.
It would help if people acknowledge what the Bible says. But they often don't.
FWers contradict and outright deny what the Bible says over and over and over again.
When they are not doing that they are rewriting certain passages to suit THEIR doctrine.

Who are the FWers?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I didn't say God was evil.

You insinuated it by what you said.

I would not expect you to think you said it. But that's the problem. this is what everyone who is not reformed sees. and for good reason.

This is a response from someone who hasn't really considered the subject fully. I suspect this is because it would mean it doesn't fit with your idea of who God actually is. And while God did know Ninevah would repent, that isn't the reason God gave for sparing them.

And here we have it. Instead of an actual argument to back what you are saying, You mock and belittle someone as if they have no knowledge

Dude, I studied theology proper for many a year. I not only have considered God and who he is, its one of the reasons I desire to be closer to him. Not because I am worthy of anything. but because he is a worthy God who can be trusted.

Your story about missionaries is wonderful, but many missionaries have met with death, and others served long on the mission field with little in the way of results. So your story is not emblematic of what happens on the mission field. Did God not know that for others there would be little in the way of results?

Yes they have, But it does not mean what I said is not true.

You want God to be a God who claims he is loving, but in the end, He is not really loving, keeping his word from people

Romans 1 says the world knows who and what God is
It says they know they are rightly judged
All God has to do is get them to call out. If they seek. He promised them they would find him

Its not his fault they do not seek him, so he is not bound to send people to preach to them who would never under any circumstance recieve him

That is why he flooded the earth. No one would repent.

Thats why he waited 400 years to send Israel into Canaan. The sin of the Amorite was not yet complete (they actually still believed in him. and why when he did send them in, he said to kill them all.. Because all we have to do is look that they did not do as God said, and these people took Israel down with them, Because they did not believe.

there is no foundation for the character of God in fatalism.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I agree with what you said except I would add on the end of the above statement .. "or not". There is no guarantee you will bring that urge under control when walking after the flesh as your desire may well exceed your will.

which is what Paul experienced in romans 7

Which is why we need Christ..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I would say that salvation here is the charism and not faith. Faith is best described as a means or instrumentality by which we received the salvation. Thanks

for by grace we have been saved through faith

Definition of faith is to have a confidence in, To Trust, to be assured. to be confident the one who is promising is able and will do something, but it is not blind faith, it is based on evidence.

It is Gods grace that saves us, But he will not force it on us. So he draws us to himself through many means, and if we repent and come to this faith or assurance. we will receive him.

But as many as have received him...

Grace is the action or means of salvation (god saving us) faith is the means by which we act and receive him.. because we trust him.

Now we can believe and not have faith.. I can believe in God. even believe in Jesus. yet not trust them.. this will be shown by my actions (or lack of) and my words (what I believe)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

See this is why you don't make any sense. You say he is talking about his present (saved) state while at the same time saying he has no spirit.

Actually this is why you are confused.

I am using and responding to your thoughts that this is talking about BEFORE he was born

At that time, he had no spirit. (at this time he does ) so in effect. He can struggle now. he could not then

so no need to read the rest of your post. You already has shown you are responding from a case of misunderstanding what I am saying.

lets get that correct first.

 

[sawdust]

I never claimed one must hear the gospel to be saved.

You implied it in post#4276. You said you don't know what happens to them in a later post yet you want to argue with those who are confident God doesn't judge anyone based on what they don't know.

I also hear the argument that God doesn't judge on things we don't receive, but all mankind was judged in Adam without any action on our part. So God does judge as He wills.

Not judged by God, condemned by Adam. The Father overlooked our sin and judged it in Christ.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As far as I'm concerned it does more than insinuate because it clearly portrays the state of being bound to the flesh from which we need saving, hence the cry at the end "who will save me". There is a solution to this hopelessness, The Lord Jesus Christ.

Are you sinless? I am asking this with all honesty, not trying to be rude or anything, just trying to see where you are coming from (I ask because of past conversations on this passage with others.. who all thought they were sinless)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The only One who is above "others" (as in ALL mankind ) is the Savior. He is the one who made this vile, unworthy sinner "so special" by his birth, life, death, burial and resurrection. The Father gave me to the Son and effectually drew me to Him just as John 6 teaches. I did not find the Son. The Son found me!

My boasting is in the Cross of Christ; for He made me worthy. IOW, I am no more worthy, in and of myself, of God's great salvation than the sinners elected unto reprobation. Read Romans 9 some day.

sorry but.

By your belief system, you claim you are more special than the one God keeps his truth from.

there is no getting away from that.

God chose you. But he did not chose the one next to you\

You will spend eternity in heaven

he will spend it in hell.

the only reason. is because God lifted you up. and held him down.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I answered multiple times, you just did not like the answer, and not just me many others.
Now you are not cool!

again

its not we do not answer. it is that they do not like our answer.

and again, another thing to point to pride. is that they always claim someone did not answer. when they did.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

trust = faith = belief = will

can I believe but not trust?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Fairness is not an attribute i will agree that righteousness is for sure. But what are the attributes of righteousness? Is Fairness not one of them?

or love

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If you believe fair means just and impartial, then sure. But if you mean by fair equal treatment, then no. I think most people's understanding of fairness has to do with equal treatment.

its called love and fairness.

You can't claim your a perfect judge if you let some go and not others.
You can't claim your a god of love if you love some, and not others (this is not taken in the effect that God loved Israel MORE and loved those he has adopted MORE.. (in the hebrew the term he loved one, but hated (loved less) the other)
I can go on and on and on.

Choosing one baby to save and bring to heaven, and another to send to hell before they are even born is not just, Not loving, and not fair.

no matter what people think