🖐️🔥 Laying hands for healing today?

[Evmur]

I believe that quote from Isaiah is talking about how Jesus bore the sickness and pain of sin for us... in Matthew, when it was referenced, it talked of how Jesus had taken the spiritual sickness away... he DID heal people, but that was to show the world that he was, truly, God on earth. And that reference to Jesus healing was before he died on the cross for us all.... so there is no indication that Jesus death was for physical healing. It was for spiritual healing and cleansing, to take away the pain and death that is tied to sin...
I find no indication that Jesus' death on the cross would allow us to never suffer from physical illnesses..

The Matthew reference says "when evening was come they brought Him all that were sick or were possessed of devils and He healed them all. This was to fulfil the prophecy of Esais "He bore our sicknesses and carried our infirmities"

Where did He bare them? the same place He bare our iniquities, even though He had not yet gone to the cross, everything He does past, present and future is in view of the cross.

 

[Evmur]

How are you, brother? It's been a while....

I think you know that I'm definitely NOT saying that God will not heal us... I just believe that He has a "master plan" for all of us, and if our physical healing is not part of His plan, we will not receive it... coincidentally, I just watched a video last evening of Lady Gaga discussing her chronic pain... and she stated that she has come to realize that God has a plan for her to learn from her pain, and to use her pain to teach/show others. It was an amazing testimony... Google it....

I get a little uneasy when people state that, no matter what is physically wrong with you, all you have to do is believe and pray, and you WILL be healed. To me, that begins to smack of the prosperity "gospel", where God wants us all to be wealthy....

I trust that God will do whatever is BEST for me in my life.... and sometimes that includes illness...

pleeze ... Lady Gaga

You would need to show an instance where Jesus said "go thy way, it is God's will for you to be sick"

You use the same argument as Charles Haddon Spurgeon who you may know I love. He was always sick, kept away from the pulpit, in pain, in distress. He died young.

But if you believe it is God's will for you how can you pray with faith to be healed.? and it goes directly against Spurgeons own theology, quite apart from the doctrine of the Immutability of God, He never changes. But also the doctrine that everything we have is by grace a free gift.

The cross is efficacious for sin and for sickness [and a good many other things.]

 

[hornetguy]

The Matthew reference says "when evening was come they brought Him all that were sick or were possessed of devils and He healed them all. This was to fulfil the prophecy of Esais "He bore our sicknesses and carried our infirmities"

Where did He bare them? the same place He bare our iniquities, even though He had not yet gone to the cross, everything He does past, present and future is in view of the cross.

That all sounds really wonderful, but I don't it believe it represents what/when Jesus fulfilled that prophecy... notice the italics.

By healing those people that were brought to him, he fulfilled the prophecy.... the prophecy that pointed to him as the Messiah... and the miraculous healings were to prove (fulfill) the prophecy.

Nowhere did the prophecy say that Jesus' death on the cross would bring perpetual miraculous physical healing...... while that's a pleasant thought, it simply isn't so. Jesus death on the cross was to heal our spiritual sickness, meaning that we will never die a spiritual death.... we are beyond the physical....

I wonder why the apostle Paul was not healed of his infirmity, even though he prayed fervently for that to happen?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You will have to show the exact scriptures that state that the time of signs and wonders never ends until we see God face-to-face.

Because it isn't in my Bible. Of course we have the Holy Spirit....and He will never leave us....but to claim that Jesus was wrong.....that's a whole nudder cridder. One I'm not willing to do....like EVER.
YMMV.

I posted to you originally due to this portion of a previous post

The Apostle Paul told us an explanation of Old Testament scriptures that said it had an end. So did Jesus, so did Isaiah, and so did Moses, Micah and many others.

The Holy Spirit wasn't really discussed in the Old Testament based upon the [Gifts] for you to say what you did in the post above this sentence.

The 9 Gifts are not fully discussed until Paul explains them in the New Testament. And nowhere in the Old Testament does it say anywhere the Holy Spirit's Gifts will END! Where are you getting this at?

 

[Evmur]

That all sounds really wonderful, but I don't it believe it represents what/when Jesus fulfilled that prophecy... notice the italics.

By healing those people that were brought to him, he fulfilled the prophecy.... the prophecy that pointed to him as the Messiah... and the miraculous healings were to prove (fulfill) the prophecy.

Nowhere did the prophecy say that Jesus' death on the cross would bring perpetual miraculous physical healing...... while that's a pleasant thought, it simply isn't so. Jesus death on the cross was to heal our spiritual sickness, meaning that we will never die a spiritual death.... we are beyond the physical....

I wonder why the apostle Paul was not healed of his infirmity, even though he prayed fervently for that to happen?

I knew that was coming

Paul tells us plainly

A thorn in the flesh was given me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me. He goes on to say what this buffeting amounted to. Shipwrecks, beatings, hunger and nakedness, false brethren, fears within and fears without. nuffing to do with sickness.

When Jesus died on the cross, was buried and raised again on the third day our salvation was complete. God is not going to one more thing to save mankind. So whatever was put on the cross, on Jesus, was permanent and forever.

It's FULL salvation, full deliverance, full healing, total forgiveness.

Now we may not attain to that fulness and we will put our hands up and confess "I have not attained to the fulness of all that God wants for me" by way of holiness, by way of total deliverance... isn't better to come clean before God and confess that? rather than put the blame on some supposed lacking in God's perfect provision.

 

[JohnDB]

I posted to you originally due to this portion of a previous post

The Holy Spirit wasn't really discussed in the Old Testament based upon the [Gifts] for you to say what you did in the post above this sentence.

The 9 Gifts are not fully discussed until Paul explains them in the New Testament. And nowhere in the Old Testament does it say anywhere the Holy Spirit's Gifts will END! Where are you getting this at?

Yes...the Holy Spirit was very much discussed in the Old Testament.

A simple concordance search is all that is required to dispel your notion of no Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.

And a period of time for signs is rampant in the Old Testament. EVERY prophet from Moses to Micah and Malachi as well as all in between spoke about them. Especially ones concerning "Year of the Lord's favor"

Meaning these periods start and stop. Otherwise we still would be starving due to locusts...still eating Mannah...still following a pillar of fire.

It's called "Hermeneutics".
God is not about performing miracles publicly for everyone to see....that time has passed. Anything else is a lie.

God still does miracles but not publicly for unbelievers to witness. There's good reasons for this. Fellowship of suffering Paul knew the limit of his suffering...which is why he knew when his time was at an end.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes...the Holy Spirit was very much discussed in the Old Testament.

A simple concordance search is all that is required to dispel your notion of no Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.

And a period of time for signs is rampant in the Old Testament. EVERY prophet from Moses to Micah and Malachi as well as all in between spoke about them. Especially ones concerning "Year of the Lord's favor"

Meaning these periods start and stop. Otherwise we still would be starving due to locusts...still eating Mannah...still following a pillar of fire.

It's called "Hermeneutics".
God is not about performing miracles publicly for everyone to see....that time has passed. Anything else is a lie.

God still does miracles but not publicly for unbelievers to witness. There's good reasons for this. Fellowship of suffering Paul knew the limit of his suffering...which is why he knew when his time was at an end.

Of course you just ignored what I even said. I said the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit were not discussed, not the Holy Spirit specifically.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course you just ignored what I even said. I said the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit were not discussed, not the Holy Spirit specifically.

Didn't God gift certain individuals with particular skills at times to perform certain tasks?

 

[JohnDB]

Of course you just ignored what I even said. I said the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit were not discussed, not the Holy Spirit specifically.

You have NEVER studied the Holy Spirit and His gifts in the Old Testament....otherwise you would not be arguing and instead be ashamed.
Ever heard the term "blind guide"?

I read what you wrote...I just know what the scriptures say. You are in direct opposition to what scriptures say. Because you don't know what scriptures say.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You have NEVER studied the Holy Spirit and His gifts in the Old Testament....otherwise you would not be arguing and instead be ashamed.
Ever heard the term "blind guide"?

I read what you wrote...I just know what the scriptures say. You are in direct opposition to what scriptures say. Because you don't know what scriptures say.

Don't be silly, I am a Jew who was made to go through Mishnah and learned the Hebrew directly by reading the Torah, Mikvah, and Tanakh.

Knowing about the Holy Spirit, seeing the Gifts in Action, [ARE NOT] the same as Paul explaining them to the converted Gentiles which is most likely your heritage.

And the whole point was you CLAIMED in the Old Testament there was writing about the ending of the Spirit.
I asked for that proof but instead I get kindergarten knowledge every 8 year old male Jew already knows about!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Didn't God gift certain individuals with particular skills at times to perform certain tasks?

The discussion I am involved in the person made a statement so my response is to the statement. But to you, yes of course. But to that poster it was not part of the discussion he even brought forth.

 

[hornetguy]

Paul tells us plainly

Yes, he does... in Galatians, and elsewhere....his thorn was some sort of physical ailment... probably very bad eyesight...

12 I beg of you, brethren, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong; 13 but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the [k]first time; 14 and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or [n]loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself. 15 Where then is [o]that sense of blessing you had? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.

He mentioned how he had to write in very large letters, when he himself wrote a letter....
"See what large letters I am using to write to you with my own hand!"

Many of his letters were dictated, and others wrote them for him.... like the letter to the church in Rome....

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Don't say John Calvin spoke in tongues hanging out The Huguenots, LOL. John McCarthur will have to revamp his Strange Fire book LOL.

Here is something I forgot about so I looked it up to include who did the study.

Although Southern Baptists generally do not practice speaking of tongues in public worship, many apparently practice speaking of tongues in private. A recent LifeWay study reported that half of SBC pastors believe that God gives some Christians a private prayer language.
Mar 30, 2016

This was in 2016 and I am told it's around 65% [2 out of 3] today 2024.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

^
And just to show this [is not] an outside source but an intimate source through the SBC itself here is proof:

An entity of the Southern Baptist Convention, Lifeway is a religious nonprofit organization that receives no funding from the denomination and reinvests income above operating expenses in mission work and other ministries around the world.
Jan 1, 2006

So LIFEWAY is SBC reporting about SBC Pastors believing in Speaking in Tongues.

 

[Evmur]

Yes, he does... in Galatians, and elsewhere....his thorn was some sort of physical ailment... probably very bad eyesight...

12 I beg of you, brethren, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong; 13 but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the [k]first time; 14 and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or [n]loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself. 15 Where then is [o]that sense of blessing you had? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.

He mentioned how he had to write in very large letters, when he himself wrote a letter....
"See what large letters I am using to write to you with my own hand!"

Many of his letters were dictated, and others wrote them for him.... like the letter to the church in Rome....

... Paul had just been beaten within an inch of his life.

Stick to these twistings and turnings ... I will stick fast to what God says "who healeth all thine diseases"

Just last week I rose from my couch, I've slept on my couch for some years now. I could not straighten up, I was almost as bent as that woman in the synagogue ... I am getting old after all. But I said "as He is so am I in this world, my Lord was an upright Man"

of course the devil answers [people really do not recognise his voice] "ah but His uprightness was moral uprightness, it means spiritual uprightness"

"yes devil but I have His righteousness, He IS my righteousness"

Bye and bye the pain left and I am walking free and upright ... like my Lord.

 

[Lamar]

Are you trying to say if someone hears the Gospel and thinks to them self I believe this that they don't actually know if they really do or not?

What I am saying is simple.

We are terrible judges of sincerity, both our own and of others. We are very capable of fooling ourselves. Matthew 7:21-23

There are many gospels to sincerely believe in. Even in our sincerity we may be sincerely wrong.

Many here trust in their personal sensibilities and experiences to guide them when scripture gets in the way.

 

[Lamar]

The idea that hospitals are not empty is not because GOD is not healing sick people.

The reason hospitals are not empty is because we do not live in an age of the miraculous but in an age of faith without sight.

Faith manifested by the miraculous is a faith without blessing. John 20:24-29

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

What I am saying is simple.

We are terrible judges of sincerity, both our own and of others. We are very capable of fooling ourselves. Matthew 7:21-23

There are many gospels to sincerely believe in. Even in our sincerity we may be sincerely wrong.

Many here trust in their personal sensibilities and experiences to guide them when scripture gets in the way.

I understand, I truly do.

But I can only hope someone watching from their home who feels like they want to say the prayer that has them claiming to know they are a sinner, they believe what they just heard, they want to make Jesus Lord and Savior in their life, that they might be actually sincere.

And I will also say, true, some can just be saying it to mock the preacher and God because they do not believe at all.

But I try to never think about the negative aspect because I know those who mock God are going to pay severely.

 

[Blade]

I read something every day i'm sure I have missed some days but its in Eph 4 and other scriptures at the end "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God ". To talk about people that are a treasure to GOD as you are "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. ". Being 63 and over 50y in the lord does make wise but one thing I have learned is if I really truly want to get GOD's attention then start talking about one if His kids in a negative way. To know He said man that's you and me only look at the outside and judges but God looks at the heart.

I watched a known preacher talking to huge crowds and one day watching on TV I believe it was live and this blond woman comes up to him says she's sick and something was wrong. The preacher prayed for her. Right when she came up to him the lord said to me "she is not who she says she is". Weeks later we find she was a reporter and lied about who she was to test that preacher. Odd how the world and some believers were on her side as to how did the preacher didn't know.

I don't know why some do the things they do when they were shown such great mercy and grace yet will not show that to all when they are not anyone's judge nor god. Why do they not look for as the lord said once "oh but do you know all the good they do for me?" No lord they do not look for it. There's this preacher lives great yet how odd to leave out the fact they have given over 60 million to who? The millions they spend over seas to help who? How many come to Christ ever month?

See my Father? Abba is the GREAT I AM. Christ king of kings lord of lords and I am His son. I have been grafted in and no one can tell what branch is original vs grafted in. I am not grafted in based on how I don't sin. See like you I put on the new man which after GOD is get that? IS created in righteousness and true holiness. That is who ever believer is. What you want a pat on the back because you like our enemy can point out sin? But wait was not your sin also covered by the blood of Jesus Christ? Who are you to point out others faults? Said it to have us pray for them? Why did you leave out all the good they do for the one you say you love the most?

If it was me.. help me don't condemn me and just judge me. Man I got the enemy doing that day in day out. Pray speak word of life. In a dark room one tiny match .. you see it.

 

[wolfwint]

I'm sorry, but I don't see where in James 5 it states that you had to be sick or the eldest. And FYI, Elder means one who is mature in the faith. Are you not that? Praise God for the healing of your son.

NO, I disagreed with what you stated. I said all have the gift of healing. Please tell the truth. I never said every Christian has the gift of healing.


"2nd if someone is not healed to 100% it is not what we find in the healings which our Lord and the apostles did. "

First, Healing means returning to its natural state. Sozo means saved, healed, and delivered.
We also see progressive healing within that hour or even a half day. Not all healing was immediate, but most were, I agree.

Then maby you should read your bible more carefully. You quotet James 5 correct, but you claime the opposite.
1. The sick person calls the eldest! You says that i have not to be sick to call the eldest.
2. You say that you cant find that the person who have to pray for the sick person has to be an eldest of the church.
The word for eldest which is used in James five is the same which is used when Paul advised to set in eldest the church of crete.
So there is no reason to think that in James 5 is meant a mature believer.
The progressive healing you mentioned was 1 time ? Written down in a specific situation.
You make from an exception an rule?
I find in the new testament, that who came to Jesus he was healed. 100%
Maby you should consider that their was a special purpose why Jesus healed and did all the miracles. For to proof that he is the sent Messajah.
I would say a believer today need no anymore a proof that Jesus is the son of God.
Otherwise i would doubt that he is a believer.