Why do some people believe and some do not?

i am gonna need you to point to me ever saying any such thing.

the reality here is that all i have done is quote the scripture.
i have given zero interpretation whatsoever.
but upon you seeing the scripture you have filled your head with all kinds of imaginary things you think i have said.

so who is really the one doing a bunch of interpretive weirdness in their head at the moment, hmm?

The farce is strong in this one Posti wan. This is not the discussion droid you are looking for.

you think the harmonization of Romans 9:18 is that Romans 9:18 means exactly the opposite of what it says?

again, who is the one giving suspicious personal interpretations...?

I like the way the KJV puts it...who can hear it?

No, you said in #33, "1 Timothy 2:3-4 says He desires all to be saved, not that He enables all to seek Him.
Romans 3:11 tells us no one seeks Him."

Then you said in #36, "Just telling you what the scripture literally says, bro. desiring all to be saved isn't the same as saving all, nor does it mention enabling all to seek Him. the parables don't speak of sheep out looking for their lost shepherd, but rather, The Shepherd looking for His lost sheep."

That is NOT quoting, much less verbatim, and it is adding commentary/interpretation to the citations.

However, I DID quote Scriptures including what you cited and then added commentary showing how all of them may be harmonized with the happy result of affirming BOTH God's omnipotence AND His omnilove. (PTL! :^)

yes.

quoting 1 Timothy 2 -- in which neither the word "seek" nor the word "enable" exist at all, even though you - by way of your personal interpretation - said they do.
and quoting Romans 3.

just quoting scripture here, bro.
nobody said the Bible is easy.

John 10 says what i told you -- that the Shepherd seeks and finds His lost sheep.

and it is straightforward logic that desiring that all be saved does not equal saving all or "enabling" all.
pointing out logical fallacy is not 'giving interpretation'
are you a universalist?

3rd time:
i've quoted scripture and poked some holes in your bad reasoning, not given any interpretation.

staying on topic! yay

some cannot hear, because they are not His children, but children of the devil.
it's straightforward.
is it intellectually easy to accept or to deal with? nope.
but is it clear? yep.

I already quoted you adding commentary to Scripture, but I agree that using right reasoning is giving correct interpretation, and the most correct understanding is that which uses our God-given logical ability to harmonize the most Scripture, which is made necessary by the fact that it was not inspired systematically but more like an unfolding narrative or movie with subplots.

But yes, God's desire for all people to be saved does not determine that everyone will reflect His love.

Re "Are you a universalist?" No, I am rather the one who has provided the rationale for just condemnation in hell, which I will share again:

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

How do you compare this to what Jesus teaches in John6 - who are they who are His?

Just one example certainly not the only reason but sometimes it’s this type of reason ….

“He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because a person hears the word sometimes this happens

“Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sometimes we dont like what he says and so we turn away

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

These parts of the message can really drive people away because they know it’s calling for the sin they live and live in so they keep away from the light knowing it’s a rebuke and call for repentance along side the promise of salvation

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I want to keep sinning im not going to want to believe this type of thing

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what I’m saying is parts of the gospel we hear often drove us away because it’s not like people tell us and does call us to repentance and obedience

Would you clarify? Did you leave out a word?

it makes me wonder if John 6:29 is saying belief is the work originating from / possessed by God, or the work associated with God. the grammar allows either interpretation.

and clearly those who are His are those who the Father gave Him((vv. 37-39)).

which presents an intellectual problem, again, because it doesn't say anyone gives their selves to Him: it says God gives them. so there is the issue of who possesses themselves right in our face..
but it is not entirely consistent with John 8 and 10, saying some cannot hear Him because they are children of the devil, and some cannot believe because they aren't His sheep - - the whole string of reason is held together by this issue of posession: we belong to Him because belong to God and He gave us to Him. none of this has anything to do with ourselves and none of this says we make some kind of choice over who is allowed to own us.

that's hard for an human mind to accept, and to understand.

the gospel of John is mind blowingly wonderful, when you start digging into its details. it's amazing


@GWH note que His isn't interpretive. it's what it literally says

Not I, because "God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden." does NOT say that God wants to harden anyone. (IOW, the second "whom" is a null set. (Thankfully, the first "whom" includes Christians :^)

This is an excellent point in that people often simply dismiss the simple truth because they can't reconcile this with their understanding of what the love of God entails. Rather than adjusting their understanding of verses like John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, and 1 Timothy 2:4, they continue to give them meaning inconsistent with the entirety of scripture. And the reason is as you state: it's not easy to accept what they perceive to be a moral inconsistency.

All Scripture is as you say in your last statement.

I agree with what you say about the intellectual problem. In one sense there's likely some very strict context that needs to be seen. In another sense, John is well known to include more than one nuance in some to many of his statements.

If I stay with John6 for a moment, there are a few points that seem foundational (or nearly so).

• 6:44 The Father must draw men to Jesus
  • 6:45 Jesus explains this by referencing Isaiah. It's an adjective not a verb so "they will all be learned ones of God" (or God's learned/taught ones or ?? since you're bringing out the genitive of 6:29). So, the Father draws by teaching.
  • Then He says (paraphrasing) the prerequisite for men coming to Jesus is to hear and learn from the Father.
• It seems the choice comes in (though argument in silence?) through all the instruction Jesus is giving in the discourse.
• 6:37 makes it clearer that the Father gives men to Jesus.
  • 6:65 reiterates and strengthens this and adds the concept of abiding.
• 6:69 establishes the Foundation of the Gospel = Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God

Not that this resolves all the theological battles, but I do think it's necessary foundation for who His sheep are in J10. They're the ones the Father has given Him. No one else can come to Him which is parallel to believing into Him (as John records it).

Re: 6:29:

• Jesus doesn't always answer directly but cuts to the issue (i.e. 6:25-27).
• I think He's doing the same thing in 6:29 answering 6:28. Whatever they're asking Him in 6:28, I think by going straight to the simple possessive sense: This is God's work, that you believe...
  • This seems to fit with 6:44 the work that God is doing drawing men to His Son by teaching them [about His Son] plus the fact that He sent His Son, plus His giving/granting men to His Son, plus... IOW our Faith is God's Work but this in no way in itself negates human choice to do what they need to do to sit and hear and learn - a process that Jesus refers to as work to receive what He gives 6:27 (which is trumped by man's belief is God's work).

Anyway, the John10 argument can be counterpointed. And this counterpoint I'm sure can or will be counterpointed. But it seems pretty foundational (at least in part) as we can see what [at least some of what] God is doing to draw men to Christ and how God our Father is the determiner of who comes to His Son only by His grant/giving as part of His Work.

I'll look at J8 again.

I find some threads are down and outright scary, for everyone involved... my take

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour...


Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.



Maybe it's best to 'rightly divide' first, to see what the truth of our situation is...


Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

John 6:70 - Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 8:38 - I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

John 8:41 - Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?


2 Corinthians 11:13-15 - For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


2 Peter 2:4 - For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1 John 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:8-10 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


1 John 3:12 - Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Jude 1:6 - And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Revelation 9:11 - And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 13:6-8 - And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:14 - And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 20:2-3 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?