Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

AGREE

OK - sounds Good so far, so please procede.
Here is my question(s) again:
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.

Thanks for your concern, but that is not happening ...yet.

Hi David,

The Father sends the Son to His body when it is time for the Lord to begin the restoration of all rulership under Him.

The Father `He may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, of which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3; 20 & 21)

Jesus is sent of the Father and God the Father will send with His Son those who are asleep in Christ.

`God (Father) will bring with Him (Jesus) those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

The Body of Christ gathers and escorts the Lord to His own throne.

`Then those who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to MEET the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 17)

The Greek word `meet,` is `apantesis,` and used only 3 times in scripture to do with meeting someone and then escorting them on their way. (eg. Paul. Acts 28: 15)

The Body of Christ, the overcomers then go with the Lord to His own throne.

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne. ` (Rev. 3: 21)

Then from the Lord`s throne in the highest realm proceeds all the judgments. (symbolically `thunders and lightnings etc.)

`And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings and voices.` (Rev. 4: 5)

The Body of Christ give thanks for the Lord taking His great power and reigning.

`We give you thanks O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.` (Rev. 11: 17)

The great multitude that come out of the great tribulation are of the nations. They are not `called out of the nations,` but still part of the nations. (Rev. 7: 9, 14)

They have palm branches in their hands signifying the `Feast of tabernacles.` Thus they will be the nations on the earth that walk in the light of God`s tabernacle that comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 24, 21: 2)

regards, Marilyn.

OK, now we are getting very close to the Truth = His Coming.

1 Thess 4:13-18

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation chapter 11 is the Last Trumpet = 7th = this is when the Lord Comes and the Resurrection

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:
“The kingdom of the world
has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of His Christ,
and He will reign forever and ever.”

Revelation is not a strict chronological Order from ch1 to ch19 but repeats itself as we see this in chapter 6 as well.

Thus far, together, we see in Scripture that at the LORD's Coming we experience the Resurrection and rapture upon which we triumphantly join Him to Rule and Reign with Him - Amen.

Notice that we have not read any scripture, so far, whereby we see any of the following:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.

So if you have been holding back scripture to give further detail = Now is the Time.

Yes, that is your opinion. But it is wrong, nonetheless. What you have been trying to do is come up with a doctrine without ANY clear verse that shows or states the doctrine.

What I have are clear verses that state FACTS. You may do what ever you want with these biblical facts.

I believe them.

Well, there's more here to agree with. 1 Thess 4 is the "classic rapture" passage, yet has NO MENTION of a glorified trip to heaven. That is significant.

And 1 Cor 15:23 says several things beyond resurrection/glorification. It says the resurrection will involve ALL believers (those who belong to Him) and it gives us the timing of the resurrection, which is "when He comes".

The Bible only speaks of 2 advents of our Lord; first as a baby, second as King of kings. So we know the resurrection of all believers will occur at the second advent. 2 Thess 2:1 says exactly that as well.

Then, there are these verses, all of which speak of resurrection in the SINGULAR:
Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 (saved and unsaved each), and of course, 1 Cor 15:23.

So, the Bible factually says there is ONE resurrection of the saved. This ONE resurrection will occur "when He comes" which is the Second Advent. Which is AFTER the Tribulation.

And there are no verses that describe a glorified trip to heaven.

These facts are irrefutable.

It is the other verses that include that. Why must you require ANY mention of the Second Advent to include ALL aspects of it?

Again, we know there is ONE resurrection of the saved, and Rev 20:5 even calls it the FIRST resurrection. So there you are.

That would be rather stupid. That my mortal body will is irrelevant to reality. Who cares about the dead mortal body?

Of course. Paul described that clearly in 2 Cor 5:6,8.

Only bodies are in graves. Didn't you know that? Even the souls of unbelievers are in a place of torments. Luke 16

Do you believe in "soul sleep"? It seems that you do, from your comment here. Please clarify.

All believers who have died are WITH CHRIST and their bodies are in the grave.

This doesn't make sense. ALL believers will receive glorified bodies, the VAST majority will through resurrection, and the very small % will through being "changed in the twinkling of en eye" per 1 Cor 15:52. So what is my error?

Nice job of just chucking the clarity of this verse. If you read v.2 and 3 is it very clear that the second coming and gathering WON'T occur until the beast (a/c) is revealed, which occurs during the Tribulation.

OK, but how does this relate to the discussion?

The real error is your total misunderstanding of my posts. I have NEVER SAID what you are accusing me of.

Most of the believers will already be in heaven at the Second Advent and will accompany Jesus to earth to receive their glorified (resurrected) bodies. Do you understand this?

btw, EVERY human being WILL be judged according to their works.

2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Bema for believers is to determine whether the believer earned rewards.
The GWT for unbelievers is to determine how "tolerable" it will be for them IN the lake of fire.

So, everyone will be judged on their works.

NO ONE will be judged on their works for whether they get to heaven or not.

lol. Just read Rev 1-3 and 22:16. The "church" bookends the entire book of Revelation.

What do you say about 2 Thess. 2:7? "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." There's some confusion over the identity of the "He". Most people believe that's referring to the Holy Spirit in the church, it will restrain Satan's power on earth until the great tribulation. However, it is clearly indicated in other places in the bible such as Peter's sermon at Pentecost, that God will pour out His spirit in the last days; also in Rev. 11, onto the Two Witnesses will God pour out His spirit. These are probably referring to the same prophetic event, that there will be a great revival that numerous people all around the world to Jesus, especially those who have "fallen away" in 2 Thess. 2:3. That seems kind of contradictory to the message in 2 Thess. 2:7

Welcome to the Reality of Truth, where all are welcome but few enter in..............

There should be no confusion over who HE is.

Christ said He would send us a COMFORTER and HE is the Holy Spirit. HE is restraining satan and will do so with gradual release and ultimately, almost full release...... in the middle of the WEEK...tribulation.

That's why those who teach that satan is in control on this earth...is just wrong.
The HS is in control, allowing as God's plan dictates.

This conclusion is proven in JOB where satan is controlled ...........to a fine point while allowed to attack JOB.
The Bible does say that satan is....the PRINCE of this world.....but, not King.

Yeah, that's definitely the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately "taken out of the way" is very likely to be a wrong translation, "genetai" (γένηται ) in the original Greek should be "coming to pass", which is the opposite of being "taken out of the way".

...taken out of the way..... is the equivalent of ....estoppel...... effect. ...which amounts to man's way of removing a barrier.

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, there's more here to agree with. 1 Thess 4 is the "classic rapture" passage, yet has NO MENTION of a glorified trip to heaven. That is significant.
Great question. Thank you.

I was bought up in the teaching of a pretrib rapture, and I, too, thought the "he" was the Holy Spirit, who would be removed from the earth at the rapture. Once I grew up and came to my senses, I realized that would be impossible, for the reasons you have noted, plus the fact that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, just like the other members of the Trinity, and can't be taken out of the world.

And, His ministry is primarily one of conviction.

So then, just who is the "he" or "it" as some translations render the word?

The only thing that makes sense is a moral government, one that keeps evil at bay. The USA has been the most recent government that has been able to basically restrain evil governments. Many commentators today are convinced that Russia would not have invaded Ukraine IF IF IF Trump was still president.

And don't forget North Korea. Obama told Trump that Kim Jun Un was his biggest challenge and most people thought N Korea was on the verse of an attack somewhere.

Well, Trump came along and cooled things down.

So, it can't be the Holy Spirit. What else can it be, other than moral government? And I believe that the USA HAS been removed as a moral government that restrains evil.

So there you are.

Nonsense. Since when do we need a NT to rightly interpret the prophecies pertaining to the Sons of Jacob spoken by Jacob himself? Or prophecies spoken by Moses pertaining to the nation Israel?

The fact is that prophecies pertaining to the nation Israel will be fulfilled to the very letter. There is absolutely no interpretation mystery involved whatsoever.

Evidently the interregnum of the Church has you mystified. You know......the gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week.

I think it should be translated "[the one restraining AT PRESENT, will restrain] until out of the midst he BECOME [or, come to be] [AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked BE REVEALED...]".




I don't believe this means that the Holy Spirit is REMOVED from the earth, but that His "restraining role" is lifted...


...which this verse (v.7b-8a) has parallel language to that of what we find expressed in Lamentations 2:3-4, esp v.3:

"he hath DRAWN BACK HIS RIGHT HAND from before the enemy..." (essentially saying, "have at 'em!"), that is, lifting His restraint.


And I say, especially correlating because of how vv.3-4's "IN FLAMING FIRE" and "poured out his fury like fire" also fits with what 2Th chapter 1 is also conveying ABOUT THAT VERY TIME-PERIOD Paul is talking about (see "IN FLAMING FIRE inflicting vengeance on those who...," which speaks of the TIME-PERIOD, not merely "a singular 24-hr day" the day of His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19. No. Not merely that "singular 24-hr day" point in time.)

I don't see it as "kind of contradictory" (per what I just put in my previous post). IOW, He's not "REMOVED" from the earth. His "restraining role" in particular is "lifted" (in relation to "[and then shall] that Wicked BE REVEALED")... This doesn't mean He cannot do other things too (during the time period under discussion, commonly called the [7-yr] Tribulation Period)... Many ppl will be coming to faith during that time period, for example...

We love you, brother. It is not our fault if you don't know how to use the edit feature. We cannot read your mind.

Because you have not only been shown the truth and rejected it, but gone even further and continued to teach your errant philosophy to others.

If you really-really want to go through the Tribulation, then perhaps God will let you.

FreeGrace2 said:
How did you manage to mess up my quote?
I know very well how to edit a post. And properly format a new post.

I was just reading through 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 (per reviewing TDW's earlier post), and that chapter has pretrib rapture written all over it. Please someone tell me how in the world are these people missing it?

He sure did.

Instructions for the poor saps that were left behind.

No. There is only one way to be counted worthy. We must all believe in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.