Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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1. Yes, obviously only some things relating to behaviour. (1 Cor. 10: 6)
2. Yes the prophet Micah certainly points to Christ - `But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to me the one to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.` (Micah 5: 2)
3. The prophet Hosea was to marry a prostitute then when she had sons they had names in relationship to what God was doing with Israel. `Lo-Ammi, ` for you are not my people, and I will not be your God.` (Micah 1: 9) Israel rebelled against God and turned to idols, (prostituted herself)
Then God told the Prophet to go again and marry his former wife who was prostituting herself. This was a picture of what God would do with Israel eventually, remarry His wife. (Hosea 3) David their king is in the millennium, (Ez. 37: 24, Jer. 30: 9)
Yes the NT (Heb. 8: 8 - 12) reveals that God will again deal with His people Israel.
4. The heavenly Jerusalem is in the highest realm and comes down out of heaven from God to bear the earth. (Heb. 12: 22, Rev. 21: 2) It is the connecting of the physical and spiritual realms.
5. You said -
Micah 4 lines up well with the pregnant woman in Revelation 12 that gives birth to Christ, the "man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" (cf. Rev 12:5 & Rev 19:15).
This is in the millennium.
Hebrews 12:22 makes it the case that Micah's "Jerusalem" is in reference the heavenly Jerusalem.
Heb. 12: 22 is about the heavenly Jerusalem, while Micah 4 is about the earthly one where nations turn their swords into plougshares etc. All earthly activity.
2. Yes the prophet Micah certainly points to Christ - `But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to me the one to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.` (Micah 5: 2)
3. The prophet Hosea was to marry a prostitute then when she had sons they had names in relationship to what God was doing with Israel. `Lo-Ammi, ` for you are not my people, and I will not be your God.` (Micah 1: 9) Israel rebelled against God and turned to idols, (prostituted herself)
Then God told the Prophet to go again and marry his former wife who was prostituting herself. This was a picture of what God would do with Israel eventually, remarry His wife. (Hosea 3) David their king is in the millennium, (Ez. 37: 24, Jer. 30: 9)
Yes the NT (Heb. 8: 8 - 12) reveals that God will again deal with His people Israel.
4. The heavenly Jerusalem is in the highest realm and comes down out of heaven from God to bear the earth. (Heb. 12: 22, Rev. 21: 2) It is the connecting of the physical and spiritual realms.
5. You said -
Micah 4 lines up well with the pregnant woman in Revelation 12 that gives birth to Christ, the "man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" (cf. Rev 12:5 & Rev 19:15).
This is in the millennium.
Hebrews 12:22 makes it the case that Micah's "Jerusalem" is in reference the heavenly Jerusalem.
Heb. 12: 22 is about the heavenly Jerusalem, while Micah 4 is about the earthly one where nations turn their swords into plougshares etc. All earthly activity.
Hi David,
Sorry to labour the point, but do you see that Christ will rule over all - the angelic realm, the universe, and the earth? And that in each of the realms there has been rebellion and thus the need for Christ to put down all that?
If so we can then move on to when the Lord will begin those judgments and from where He will do it and with whom.
regards, Marilyn.
Sorry to labour the point, but do you see that Christ will rule over all - the angelic realm, the universe, and the earth? And that in each of the realms there has been rebellion and thus the need for Christ to put down all that?
If so we can then move on to when the Lord will begin those judgments and from where He will do it and with whom.
regards, Marilyn.
What I think you are saying is that ALL SAINTS WILL BE KILLED in the future Tribulation period (NONE SURVIVE physically / bodily... ALL *DIE*)... Is this what you mean to convey??
[by the way, I believe Daniel 12:6-7,1 etc (context) is also speaking of the SECOND HALF of the future Tribulation period, and note where v.4 says, "knowledge shall be increased" (note: not merely RANDOM "knowledge"
) and where v.10 says "the WISE WILL UNDERSTAND" (which I believe the context refers to "the WISE [of ISRAEL]")...]
[by the way, I believe Daniel 12:6-7,1 etc (context) is also speaking of the SECOND HALF of the future Tribulation period, and note where v.4 says, "knowledge shall be increased" (note: not merely RANDOM "knowledge"
) and where v.10 says "the WISE WILL UNDERSTAND" (which I believe the context refers to "the WISE [of ISRAEL]")...]
Jesus promised that some will be kept until His Coming.
He knows who they are and their preservation will not come from any false pre-trib rapture.
He is fully capable to keep them until His Coming.
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Hi FG,
You have only put bits together as you see it and not concerned your self with God`s great plan. It`s like trying to place jigsaw pieces together without looking at the finished picture on the cover. You can end up with anything.
So to your scriptures -
1. 1 Thess 4: 17. yes, believers, (who are eagerly waiting) will be caught up. Agree.
2. 1 Cor. 15: 52. yes they will be changed in the twinklng of an eye. Agree.
3. 1 Cor. 15: 23 yes they will be glorified. Agree.
4. Rev. 20: 4 & 5 `I saw the souls of those beheaded for their witness t Jesus and for the word of God, who had NOT WORSHIPPED the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.`
That only shows specially that it is those who had overcome the beast who will reign in the millennium NOT All believers as you say.
5. You say that there is only two resurrections in total - one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Agree.
Acts 24: 15 `resurrection of the just and the unjust.`
John 5: 27 - 29 `all who are IN THE GRAVES will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good to the resurrection to life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.`
So FG, are you looking to spend time IN THE GRAVE? Or are you IN CHRIST and when die go straight to be with HIM?
Thus we are NOT of those IN THE GRAVES. Those who have died are asleep IN CHRIST and will come with Him, and then receive their glorified bodies. They are NEVER IN THE GRAVE.
You have added that they `will be resurrected,` whereas scriptures tells us we will all be glorified. That is where your error is.
6. 2 Thess. 2: 1. Our gathering together BEFORE the Day of the Lord, (God Almighty for judgment) We are NOT under judgment so we DO NOT go into that.
7. 1 Cor. 15: 23 does say as you said - that all believers will be glorified, which prepares them to reign/serve in the King's Kingdom. Now God`s kingdom is over all - the angelic realm, the universe and the earth. We, the BODY of Christ will be with Him on His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21) in the highest. From there we judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)
Your biggest error is that you think we will be IN THE GRAVES and thus judged on our WORKS.
regards, Marilyn.
You have only put bits together as you see it and not concerned your self with God`s great plan. It`s like trying to place jigsaw pieces together without looking at the finished picture on the cover. You can end up with anything.
So to your scriptures -
1. 1 Thess 4: 17. yes, believers, (who are eagerly waiting) will be caught up. Agree.
2. 1 Cor. 15: 52. yes they will be changed in the twinklng of an eye. Agree.
3. 1 Cor. 15: 23 yes they will be glorified. Agree.
4. Rev. 20: 4 & 5 `I saw the souls of those beheaded for their witness t Jesus and for the word of God, who had NOT WORSHIPPED the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.`
That only shows specially that it is those who had overcome the beast who will reign in the millennium NOT All believers as you say.
5. You say that there is only two resurrections in total - one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Agree.
Acts 24: 15 `resurrection of the just and the unjust.`
John 5: 27 - 29 `all who are IN THE GRAVES will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good to the resurrection to life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.`
So FG, are you looking to spend time IN THE GRAVE? Or are you IN CHRIST and when die go straight to be with HIM?
Thus we are NOT of those IN THE GRAVES. Those who have died are asleep IN CHRIST and will come with Him, and then receive their glorified bodies. They are NEVER IN THE GRAVE.
You have added that they `will be resurrected,` whereas scriptures tells us we will all be glorified. That is where your error is.
6. 2 Thess. 2: 1. Our gathering together BEFORE the Day of the Lord, (God Almighty for judgment) We are NOT under judgment so we DO NOT go into that.
7. 1 Cor. 15: 23 does say as you said - that all believers will be glorified, which prepares them to reign/serve in the King's Kingdom. Now God`s kingdom is over all - the angelic realm, the universe and the earth. We, the BODY of Christ will be with Him on His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21) in the highest. From there we judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)
Your biggest error is that you think we will be IN THE GRAVES and thus judged on our WORKS.
regards, Marilyn.
What I think you are saying is that ALL SAINTS WILL BE KILLED in the future Tribulation period (NONE SURVIVE physically / bodily... ALL *DIE*)... Is this what you mean to convey??
[by the way, I believe Daniel 12:6-7,1 etc (context) is also speaking of the SECOND HALF of the future Tribulation period, and note where v.4 says, "knowledge shall be increased" (note: not merely RANDOM "knowledge" ) and where v.10 says "the WISE WILL UNDERSTAND" (which I believe the context refers to "the WISE [of ISRAEL]")...]
[by the way, I believe Daniel 12:6-7,1 etc (context) is also speaking of the SECOND HALF of the future Tribulation period, and note where v.4 says, "knowledge shall be increased" (note: not merely RANDOM "knowledge"
) and where v.10 says "the WISE WILL UNDERSTAND" (which I believe the context refers to "the WISE [of ISRAEL]")...]
Daniel Chapter 12 - Now we are getting somewhere.
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More than just behaviour.
And God did, when He gave the people Christianity. Read Heb 8 again, the context is that the second covenant is in Christ. God did deal with His people, all of them: those that were then Jews and Gentiles.
"Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee [Hosea], I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith." - Romans 9:24-30 KJV
I still don't see a compelling reason to interpret the heavenly Jerusalem as new Jerusalem, especially since heaven fades away in Rev 21 prior to new Jerusalem.
"comes down"
New Jerusalem comes down to new earth.
If we are to assume that only literal straightforward self-contained interpretations apply, should we also assume that the heavenly kingdom does not move?
"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" - Hebrews 12:28 KJV
The rule with a rod of iron is a reference to the 1000 year kingdom, yes. But the birth of Christ was clearly prior. The woman given birth to Christ is clearly not chronological and instead is a representation of things that passed. Revelation is full of events that are not necessarily as straight forward as they seem but the imagery creates strong connections to past prophesies and events.
You assume it is an earthly Jerusalem because you believe that "swords into plowshares" is necessarily a literal event rather than metaphoric? Do you also believe that the Daughter of Zion has a literal iron horn and literal brass hoofs in Micah 4? Or do you accept that this is better explained by metaphors such as Daniel's explanation of iron and brass? The presence of the phrase "swords into plowshares" is clearly not an indication of an earthly Jerusalem and clearly does not represent a literal earthly transformation of literal swords into literal plowshares.
The fact still remains that the Daughter of Zion matches well with the woman that gives birth to Christ in a strong, compelling connection.
For the sake of conversation, even if we explore the interpretation of the earthly Jerusalem, why would this not refer to the physical Jerusalem at the time of crucifixion? Or some interpretation within the time of the 1000 year kingdom where Christ rules?
And God did, when He gave the people Christianity. Read Heb 8 again, the context is that the second covenant is in Christ. God did deal with His people, all of them: those that were then Jews and Gentiles.
"Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee [Hosea], I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith." - Romans 9:24-30 KJV
I still don't see a compelling reason to interpret the heavenly Jerusalem as new Jerusalem, especially since heaven fades away in Rev 21 prior to new Jerusalem.
"comes down"
New Jerusalem comes down to new earth.
If we are to assume that only literal straightforward self-contained interpretations apply, should we also assume that the heavenly kingdom does not move?
"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" - Hebrews 12:28 KJV
The rule with a rod of iron is a reference to the 1000 year kingdom, yes. But the birth of Christ was clearly prior. The woman given birth to Christ is clearly not chronological and instead is a representation of things that passed. Revelation is full of events that are not necessarily as straight forward as they seem but the imagery creates strong connections to past prophesies and events.
You assume it is an earthly Jerusalem because you believe that "swords into plowshares" is necessarily a literal event rather than metaphoric? Do you also believe that the Daughter of Zion has a literal iron horn and literal brass hoofs in Micah 4? Or do you accept that this is better explained by metaphors such as Daniel's explanation of iron and brass? The presence of the phrase "swords into plowshares" is clearly not an indication of an earthly Jerusalem and clearly does not represent a literal earthly transformation of literal swords into literal plowshares.
The fact still remains that the Daughter of Zion matches well with the woman that gives birth to Christ in a strong, compelling connection.
For the sake of conversation, even if we explore the interpretation of the earthly Jerusalem, why would this not refer to the physical Jerusalem at the time of crucifixion? Or some interpretation within the time of the 1000 year kingdom where Christ rules?
The context was sufficiently unclear that Paul made a point of talking about it.
If I asked you what the square root of 4 is, you might intuitively answer "2" and stand firm in your interpretation that your solution is common sense and that no other interpretation fits. The truth is that both 2 and -2 need to be considered, and the same principle applies in exegesis. In many cases there are multiple possible interpretations that can fit. Through the process of determining constraints on our systems of interpretation we can figure out whether "2" or "-2" is the more correct fit.
Which "seed" is plural? Which "seed" is singular? We've had this conversation before, you just never meaningfully responded to that part of my post:
If I asked you what the square root of 4 is, you might intuitively answer "2" and stand firm in your interpretation that your solution is common sense and that no other interpretation fits. The truth is that both 2 and -2 need to be considered, and the same principle applies in exegesis. In many cases there are multiple possible interpretations that can fit. Through the process of determining constraints on our systems of interpretation we can figure out whether "2" or "-2" is the more correct fit.
Which "seed" is plural? Which "seed" is singular? We've had this conversation before, you just never meaningfully responded to that part of my post:
Hi David,
We are of `Down under,` Oz, Aussies, Auuuusstraalia. (our accent)
But wow what a beauty, a great Salmon. And I`ll tell hubby about the invite, thanks, he would have loved to do that with you. He is busy catching trout this week. When we holidayed up north we caught large Barramundi & Coral Trout etc.
We are of `Down under,` Oz, Aussies, Auuuusstraalia. (our accent
)But wow what a beauty, a great Salmon. And I`ll tell hubby about the invite, thanks, he would have loved to do that with you. He is busy catching trout this week. When we holidayed up north we caught large Barramundi & Coral Trout etc.
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Hi David,
I don`t want you to have to agree with my position, for we know it is a process in the Lord that we are all learning more of the Lord and His purposes.
So...the Father`s purpose is that all rulership in every realm come under His Son. (Eph. 1: 10) Every realm had rebellion the OT prophets tell us (Job 15: 15, Ez. 28: 16, Isa. 14: 12) and so there is need of restoration of rulership in every realm under Christ.
All judgment is given to the Son and there will be an appointed time when He begins to judge the world system and fallen angels. (John 5: 27, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)
At the appointed time the Father will send Jesus from His right hand to gather His people who escort Him to His own throne. (Acts 3: 20 & 21, 1 Thess. 4: 17, Rev. 3: 21)
This is the beginning of the restoration of all things, all rulership under the Lord. He will set about judging the nations in the tribulation and ruling with the rod of iron in the millennium. (Rev. 4: 5, 8: ff)
It is a process for the Lord bringing all power and authority and rule under Him. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)
If you want more scriptures for any part or more explanation, please ask.
regards, Marilyn.
I don`t want you to have to agree with my position, for we know it is a process in the Lord that we are all learning more of the Lord and His purposes.
So...the Father`s purpose is that all rulership in every realm come under His Son. (Eph. 1: 10) Every realm had rebellion the OT prophets tell us (Job 15: 15, Ez. 28: 16, Isa. 14: 12) and so there is need of restoration of rulership in every realm under Christ.
All judgment is given to the Son and there will be an appointed time when He begins to judge the world system and fallen angels. (John 5: 27, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)
At the appointed time the Father will send Jesus from His right hand to gather His people who escort Him to His own throne. (Acts 3: 20 & 21, 1 Thess. 4: 17, Rev. 3: 21)
This is the beginning of the restoration of all things, all rulership under the Lord. He will set about judging the nations in the tribulation and ruling with the rod of iron in the millennium. (Rev. 4: 5, 8: ff)
It is a process for the Lord bringing all power and authority and rule under Him. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)
If you want more scriptures for any part or more explanation, please ask.
regards, Marilyn.
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Hi David,
We are of `Down under,` Oz, Aussies, Auuuusstraalia. (our accent)
But wow what a beauty, a great Salmon. And I`ll tell hubby about the invite, thanks, he would have loved to do that with you. He is busy catching trout this week. When we holidayed up north we caught large Barramundi & Coral Trout etc.
We are of `Down under,` Oz, Aussies, Auuuusstraalia. (our accent
)But wow what a beauty, a great Salmon. And I`ll tell hubby about the invite, thanks, he would have loved to do that with you. He is busy catching trout this week. When we holidayed up north we caught large Barramundi & Coral Trout etc.