Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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Yesssssss...and here is why:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Again, Paul taught that we need glorified or incorruptible bodies in order to "inherit the kingdom of God".
Well, Paul is PRESENTLY in heaven or "present with the Lord", isn't he?
II Corinthians chapter 5
[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Well, seeing how Paul is "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord", how in the world could this "kingdom of God" which we cannot "inherit" without glorified or incorruptible bodies be in heaven?
In other words, Paul clearly hasn't received his "incorruptible" body yet, and he won't until the second coming of Christ (he only comes twice) when Jesus returns from the third heaven with his saints in order to establish "the kingdom of God" right here on earth.
C'mon, oyster.
I know that you're an intelligent man.
Tell me that you can see this...
I Corinthians chapter 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Again, Paul taught that we need glorified or incorruptible bodies in order to "inherit the kingdom of God".
Well, Paul is PRESENTLY in heaven or "present with the Lord", isn't he?
II Corinthians chapter 5
[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Well, seeing how Paul is "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord", how in the world could this "kingdom of God" which we cannot "inherit" without glorified or incorruptible bodies be in heaven?
In other words, Paul clearly hasn't received his "incorruptible" body yet, and he won't until the second coming of Christ (he only comes twice) when Jesus returns from the third heaven with his saints in order to establish "the kingdom of God" right here on earth.
C'mon, oyster.
I know that you're an intelligent man.
Tell me that you can see this...
Already done, and ignored by you and some others. One could show a hundred Scriptures to the naysayers, and all they would do is scoff.
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (2 Peter 3:3,4).
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (2 Peter 3:3,4).
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If that's where she'd want to rule from, ok. Her throne would be far above any others even in your backyard, seeing that she's ruling over the entire earth, hypothetically of course but, in God's case, His throne is far above all others, considering He rules over all existence, including the queen of England.
Yes, IN THE LAST DAYS. That has just proved that the church must be there to endure the Great Tribulation. By the way you haven't given clear definitions of the "Church", "rapture" or the precise timing of "pre-trib". This doctrine is built on shifting sands, and it's exactly the kind of false christs that Jesus was warning about in the Olivet Discourse.
John 14:22.
Jesus only manifest himself to His believers.....from the point in time of His own resurrection until the rapture. During the rapture only believers will be longing for His return, and waiting patiently (Heb 9:28, Rev 3:10, 2Ti 4:8).
Jesus only manifest himself to His believers.....from the point in time of His own resurrection until the rapture. During the rapture only believers will be longing for His return, and waiting patiently (Heb 9:28, Rev 3:10, 2Ti 4:8).
Rev 1:7 -
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.
The below quote shows as from me, but the sentence doesn't make any sense. So apparently it was copied wrong.
FreeGrace2 said:
According to it, the marraige and supper occurs in heaven IMMEDIATELY upon all raptured believers get to heaven.
I don't believe in a rapture where believers are taken to heaven.
How did you manage to mess up my quote?
Not. Since Rev 19 is at the VERY END of the tribulation, and the language clearly shows the bride/wife "making herself ready", that is clear enough. In addition, why would John say this in Rev 19:9 - Then the angel said to me, Write "blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb". And he added, "these are the true words of God".
Let me point out that IF the wedding/supper has already occurred, why would the angel say "who ARE invited to the wedding"?
Wouldn't the correct language have been "who WERE invited to the wedding" IF IF IF it had already occurred?
Prove your point with Scripture.
I've already shown the language in ch 19 that shows what is ABOUT TO COME. Not what has ALREADY COME.
FreeGrace2 said:
According to it, the marraige and supper occurs in heaven IMMEDIATELY upon all raptured believers get to heaven.
I don't believe in a rapture where believers are taken to heaven.
How did you manage to mess up my quote?
Not. Since Rev 19 is at the VERY END of the tribulation, and the language clearly shows the bride/wife "making herself ready", that is clear enough. In addition, why would John say this in Rev 19:9 - Then the angel said to me, Write "blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb". And he added, "these are the true words of God".
Let me point out that IF the wedding/supper has already occurred, why would the angel say "who ARE invited to the wedding"?
Wouldn't the correct language have been "who WERE invited to the wedding" IF IF IF it had already occurred?
Prove your point with Scripture.
I've already shown the language in ch 19 that shows what is ABOUT TO COME. Not what has ALREADY COME.
Live4Him2 said:
they don't even know why he's coming.
Yet, all you can prove from Scripture is that Jesus will return to earth with all believers and reign with him during the Millennium.
NONE of the rest can be shown from Scripture. It's all just speculation, assumption, etc.
Why would any believer tell another believer who doesn't believe in a pretrib resurrection/rapture that they will be missing out?
Do you really believe that those SAVED people who don't believe in a pretrib resurrection/rapture won't get resurrected at all????
Could you explain what you think the bolded words mean?
they don't even know why he's coming.
Yet, all you can prove from Scripture is that Jesus will return to earth with all believers and reign with him during the Millennium.
NONE of the rest can be shown from Scripture. It's all just speculation, assumption, etc.
Why would any believer tell another believer who doesn't believe in a pretrib resurrection/rapture that they will be missing out?
Do you really believe that those SAVED people who don't believe in a pretrib resurrection/rapture won't get resurrected at all????
Could you explain what you think the bolded words mean?
How come there are NO verses that show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
Why do you hold onto a doctrine is is NOT STATED in the Bible?
Of course it means the living believers will get their glorified bodies immediately. iow, their mortal bodies are changed into immortal bodies in the twinkling of an eye.
Why do you hold onto a doctrine is is NOT STATED in the Bible?
Of course it means the living believers will get their glorified bodies immediately. iow, their mortal bodies are changed into immortal bodies in the twinkling of an eye.
FreeGrace2 said:
If this doctrine is really SEEN to be rooted in Scripture, then SHOW IT TO THE THREAD. For all to see.
Oh, puuuleeeeeeeeze stop it already. No, you haven't.
NO ONE has shown from Scripture that there will be a pretrib rapture trip to heaven.
Yet, the Bible plainly tells us that ALL believers will be resurrected/changed "when He comes". 1 Cor 15:23
And, the bible plainly tells us WHEN that will be. Rev 20:5 is post trib, and calls the singular resurrection of the saved the FIRST resurrection, which will be 1,000 years before the second resurrection of all the unsaved.
lol. You can't even show 1 verse to support your theory.
2 Thess 2:1 tells us plainly that the "gathering" which you guys call a 'rapture' will occur "at the coming of our Lord". And I've proven that is the second advent above.
Now, do your due diligence, and since you disagree with my view, address each of the verses I've shared to show me my error.
The only way I can show your error is in pointing out that there are NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
If this doctrine is really SEEN to be rooted in Scripture, then SHOW IT TO THE THREAD. For all to see.
Oh, puuuleeeeeeeeze stop it already. No, you haven't.
NO ONE has shown from Scripture that there will be a pretrib rapture trip to heaven.
Yet, the Bible plainly tells us that ALL believers will be resurrected/changed "when He comes". 1 Cor 15:23
And, the bible plainly tells us WHEN that will be. Rev 20:5 is post trib, and calls the singular resurrection of the saved the FIRST resurrection, which will be 1,000 years before the second resurrection of all the unsaved.
lol. You can't even show 1 verse to support your theory.
2 Thess 2:1 tells us plainly that the "gathering" which you guys call a 'rapture' will occur "at the coming of our Lord". And I've proven that is the second advent above.
Now, do your due diligence, and since you disagree with my view, address each of the verses I've shared to show me my error.
The only way I can show your error is in pointing out that there are NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Actually the wedding ceremony occurs in Heaven (Rev 19:7)......while the great tribulation rages upon the earth BEFORE the Second Coming (Rev 19:11).
The wedding supper/feast occurs on the Earth, after the Second Coming with additional guests. These additional guess being survivors of the great tribulation (both Jews and Gentiles) and resurrected Old Testament saints.....including John the Baptist. John the Baptist describes himself as a friend of the bridegroom not the bride.
This "dual ceremony" sequence matchers the Jewish wedding ceremony perfectly. In Jesus day a typical Jewish wedding ceremony occurs at the Father's house (AFTER the harpazo, with only a very limited attendance). The great wedding feast occurs afterward.......lasting for many days and the entire village attends this feast.
The wedding supper/feast occurs on the Earth, after the Second Coming with additional guests. These additional guess being survivors of the great tribulation (both Jews and Gentiles) and resurrected Old Testament saints.....including John the Baptist. John the Baptist describes himself as a friend of the bridegroom not the bride.
This "dual ceremony" sequence matchers the Jewish wedding ceremony perfectly. In Jesus day a typical Jewish wedding ceremony occurs at the Father's house (AFTER the harpazo, with only a very limited attendance). The great wedding feast occurs afterward.......lasting for many days and the entire village attends this feast.
The Church is mention nowhere between Revelation 6 through 18. Because they ALREADY have been raptured and are seen in heaven in Revelation chapter 4 and 5. Unmistakably they are the kings and priests with white robes and crowns sitting upon thrones. Matching perfectly the Church as described Revelation 1 through 3.
The rapture of the Church is absolute boilerplate doctrine. In fact it is one of the most fully supportable doctrines in all of the Bible. There is an absolute truckload of scriptural support.
The rapture of the Church is absolute boilerplate doctrine. In fact it is one of the most fully supportable doctrines in all of the Bible. There is an absolute truckload of scriptural support.
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That's because "church" is a called out assembly of God's people - aka the saints in Revelation, not any organization or institution. And by the way the seven letters were addressed to seven guardian angels, not seven church leaders. It wasn't a poetic expression or a figure of speech. Church is not under wrath because the church will be protected (Rev. 11:5). If the church were raptured into heaven, how are they gonna inherit the millennial kingdom - which will be established here on earth?
We have already discussed this many many times in the past on these threads. Allow me to reiterate the Biblical pattern.....(PATTERN).
Limiting Jesus' manifestation after His resurrection we can state:
-never once did Jesus appear to an unbeliever (with the exception of Paul)
-no eye of any unbeliever ever saw him in His glorified state
-Jesus only manifests Himself ONLY to believers in this present Church age.....everyone else is blinded (Jn 14:22)
So it shall be at the rapture. Jesus will appear and be recognized only by believers. Jesus will NOT set His foot upon the earth......He meets us in the air. Every eye shall NOT see Him......only believing eyes. Jesus dispenses only grace and mercy to His bride the Church in this present Church age......never the condemnation of His wrath. Categorically the present Church age is the time of sanctification and preparation of His bride, pursuant to the inevitable rapture.
It's a totally different story during the Daniels 70th week tribulation and the Second Coming to the earth.....the time of the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God.
Limiting Jesus' manifestation after His resurrection we can state:
-never once did Jesus appear to an unbeliever (with the exception of Paul)
-no eye of any unbeliever ever saw him in His glorified state
-Jesus only manifests Himself ONLY to believers in this present Church age.....everyone else is blinded (Jn 14:22)
So it shall be at the rapture. Jesus will appear and be recognized only by believers. Jesus will NOT set His foot upon the earth......He meets us in the air. Every eye shall NOT see Him......only believing eyes. Jesus dispenses only grace and mercy to His bride the Church in this present Church age......never the condemnation of His wrath. Categorically the present Church age is the time of sanctification and preparation of His bride, pursuant to the inevitable rapture.
It's a totally different story during the Daniels 70th week tribulation and the Second Coming to the earth.....the time of the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God.