Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

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Aug 2, 2021
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Hi David,

I don`t want you to have to agree with my position, for we know it is a process in the Lord that we are all learning more of the Lord and His purposes.

So...the Father`s purpose is that all rulership in every realm come under His Son. (Eph. 1: 10) Every realm had rebellion the OT prophets tell us (Job 15: 15, Ez. 28: 16, Isa. 14: 12) and so there is need of restoration of rulership in every realm under Christ.

All judgment is given to the Son and there will be an appointed time when He begins to judge the world system and fallen angels. (John 5: 27, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

At the appointed time the Father will send Jesus from His right hand to gather His people who escort Him to His own throne. (Acts 3: 20 & 21, 1 Thess. 4: 17, Rev. 3: 21)

This is the beginning of the restoration of all things, all rulership under the Lord. He will set about judging the nations in the tribulation and ruling with the rod of iron in the millennium. (Rev. 4: 5, 8: ff)

It is a process for the Lord bringing all power and authority and rule under Him. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

If you want more scriptures for any part or more explanation, please ask.

regards, Marilyn.
AGREE

OK - sounds Good so far, so please procede.
Here is my question(s) again:
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.
 

Marilyn

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2021
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AGREE

OK - sounds Good so far, so please procede.
Here is my question(s) again:
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.
Hi David,

The Father sends the Son to His body when it is time for the Lord to begin the restoration of all rulership under Him.

The Father `He may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, of which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3; 20 & 21)

Jesus is sent of the Father and God the Father will send with His Son those who are asleep in Christ.

`God (Father) will bring with Him (Jesus) those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

The Body of Christ gathers and escorts the Lord to His own throne.

`Then those who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to MEET the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 17)

The Greek word `meet,` is `apantesis,` and used only 3 times in scripture to do with meeting someone and then escorting them on their way. (eg. Paul. Acts 28: 15)

The Body of Christ, the overcomers then go with the Lord to His own throne.

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne. ` (Rev. 3: 21)

Then from the Lord`s throne in the highest realm proceeds all the judgments. (symbolically `thunders and lightnings etc.)

`And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings and voices.` (Rev. 4: 5)

The Body of Christ give thanks for the Lord taking His great power and reigning.

`We give you thanks O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.` (Rev. 11: 17)

The great multitude that come out of the great tribulation are of the nations. They are not `called out of the nations,` but still part of the nations. (Rev. 7: 9, 14)

They have palm branches in their hands signifying the `Feast of tabernacles.` Thus they will be the nations on the earth that walk in the light of God`s tabernacle that comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 24, 21: 2)

regards, Marilyn.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Hi David,

The Father sends the Son to His body when it is time for the Lord to begin the restoration of all rulership under Him.

The Father `He may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, of which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3; 20 & 21)

Jesus is sent of the Father and God the Father will send with His Son those who are asleep in Christ.

`God (Father) will bring with Him (Jesus) those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

The Body of Christ gathers and escorts the Lord to His own throne.

`Then those who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to MEET the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 17)

The Greek word `meet,` is `apantesis,` and used only 3 times in scripture to do with meeting someone and then escorting them on their way. (eg. Paul. Acts 28: 15)

The Body of Christ, the overcomers then go with the Lord to His own throne.

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne. ` (Rev. 3: 21)

Then from the Lord`s throne in the highest realm proceeds all the judgments. (symbolically `thunders and lightnings etc.)

`And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings and voices.` (Rev. 4: 5)

The Body of Christ give thanks for the Lord taking His great power and reigning.

`We give you thanks O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.` (Rev. 11: 17)

The great multitude that come out of the great tribulation are of the nations. They are not `called out of the nations,` but still part of the nations. (Rev. 7: 9, 14)

They have palm branches in their hands signifying the `Feast of tabernacles.` Thus they will be the nations on the earth that walk in the light of God`s tabernacle that comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 24, 21: 2)

regards, Marilyn.
OK, now we are getting very close to the Truth = His Coming.

1 Thess 4:13-18

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven
with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation chapter 11 is the Last Trumpet = 7th = this is when the Lord Comes and the Resurrection

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:
“The kingdom of the world
has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of His Christ,
and He will reign forever and ever.”

Revelation is not a strict chronological Order from ch1 to ch19 but repeats itself as we see this in chapter 6 as well.

Thus far, together, we see in Scripture that at the LORD's Coming we experience the Resurrection and rapture upon which we triumphantly join Him to Rule and Reign with Him - Amen.

Notice that we have not read any scripture, so far, whereby we see any of the following:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.

So if you have been holding back scripture to give further detail = Now is the Time.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Hi FG,
You have only put bits together as you see it and not concerned your self with God`s great plan.
Yes, that is your opinion. But it is wrong, nonetheless. What you have been trying to do is come up with a doctrine without ANY clear verse that shows or states the doctrine.

It`s like trying to place jigsaw pieces together without looking at the finished picture on the cover. You can end up with anything.
What I have are clear verses that state FACTS. You may do what ever you want with these biblical facts.

I believe them.

So to your scriptures -

1. 1 Thess 4: 17. yes, believers, (who are eagerly waiting) will be caught up. Agree.
2. 1 Cor. 15: 52. yes they will be changed in the twinklng of an eye. Agree.
3. 1 Cor. 15: 23 yes they will be glorified. Agree.
Well, there's more here to agree with. 1 Thess 4 is the "classic rapture" passage, yet has NO MENTION of a glorified trip to heaven. That is significant.

And 1 Cor 15:23 says several things beyond resurrection/glorification. It says the resurrection will involve ALL believers (those who belong to Him) and it gives us the timing of the resurrection, which is "when He comes".

The Bible only speaks of 2 advents of our Lord; first as a baby, second as King of kings. So we know the resurrection of all believers will occur at the second advent. 2 Thess 2:1 says exactly that as well.

Then, there are these verses, all of which speak of resurrection in the SINGULAR:
Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 (saved and unsaved each), and of course, 1 Cor 15:23.

So, the Bible factually says there is ONE resurrection of the saved. This ONE resurrection will occur "when He comes" which is the Second Advent. Which is AFTER the Tribulation.

And there are no verses that describe a glorified trip to heaven.

These facts are irrefutable.

4. Rev. 20: 4 & 5 `I saw the souls of those beheaded for their witness t Jesus and for the word of God, who had NOT WORSHIPPED the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.`

That only shows specially that it is those who had overcome the beast who will reign in the millennium NOT All believers as you say.
It is the other verses that include that. Why must you require ANY mention of the Second Advent to include ALL aspects of it?

Again, we know there is ONE resurrection of the saved, and Rev 20:5 even calls it the FIRST resurrection. So there you are.

5. You say that there is only two resurrections in total - one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Agree.
Acts 24: 15 `resurrection of the just and the unjust.`
John 5: 27 - 29 `all who are IN THE GRAVES will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good to the resurrection to life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.`

So FG, are you looking to spend time IN THE GRAVE?
That would be rather stupid. That my mortal body will is irrelevant to reality. Who cares about the dead mortal body?

Or are you IN CHRIST and when die go straight to be with HIM?
Of course. Paul described that clearly in 2 Cor 5:6,8.

Thus we are NOT of those IN THE GRAVES.
Only bodies are in graves. Didn't you know that? Even the souls of unbelievers are in a place of torments. Luke 16

Those who have died are asleep IN CHRIST and will come with Him, and then receive their glorified bodies.
Do you believe in "soul sleep"? It seems that you do, from your comment here. Please clarify.

All believers who have died are WITH CHRIST and their bodies are in the grave.

You have added that they `will be resurrected,` whereas scriptures tells us we will all be glorified. That is where your error is.
This doesn't make sense. ALL believers will receive glorified bodies, the VAST majority will through resurrection, and the very small % will through being "changed in the twinkling of en eye" per 1 Cor 15:52. So what is my error?

6. 2 Thess. 2: 1. Our gathering together BEFORE the Day of the Lord, (God Almighty for judgment) We are NOT under judgment so we DO NOT go into that.
Nice job of just chucking the clarity of this verse. If you read v.2 and 3 is it very clear that the second coming and gathering WON'T occur until the beast (a/c) is revealed, which occurs during the Tribulation.

7. 1 Cor. 15: 23 does say as you said - that all believers will be glorified, which prepares them to reign/serve in the King's Kingdom. Now God`s kingdom is over all - the angelic realm, the universe and the earth. We, the BODY of Christ will be with Him on His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21) in the highest. From there we judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)
OK, but how does this relate to the discussion?

Your biggest error is that you think we will be IN THE GRAVES and thus judged on our WORKS.

regards, Marilyn.
The real error is your total misunderstanding of my posts. I have NEVER SAID what you are accusing me of.

Most of the believers will already be in heaven at the Second Advent and will accompany Jesus to earth to receive their glorified (resurrected) bodies. Do you understand this?

btw, EVERY human being WILL be judged according to their works.

2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Bema for believers is to determine whether the believer earned rewards.
The GWT for unbelievers is to determine how "tolerable" it will be for them IN the lake of fire.

So, everyone will be judged on their works.

NO ONE will be judged on their works for whether they get to heaven or not.
 
Feb 24, 2022
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Well, there's more here to agree with. 1 Thess 4 is the "classic rapture" passage, yet has NO MENTION of a glorified trip to heaven. That is significant.
What do you say about 2 Thess. 2:7? "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." There's some confusion over the identity of the "He". Most people believe that's referring to the Holy Spirit in the church, it will restrain Satan's power on earth until the great tribulation. However, it is clearly indicated in other places in the bible such as Peter's sermon at Pentecost, that God will pour out His spirit in the last days; also in Rev. 11, onto the Two Witnesses will God pour out His spirit. These are probably referring to the same prophetic event, that there will be a great revival that numerous people all around the world to Jesus, especially those who have "fallen away" in 2 Thess. 2:3. That seems kind of contradictory to the message in 2 Thess. 2:7
 
May 22, 2020
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What do you say about 2 Thess. 2:7? "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." There's some confusion over the identity of the "He". Most people believe that's referring to the Holy Spirit in the church, it will restrain Satan's power on earth until the great tribulation. However, it is clearly indicated in other places in the bible such as Peter's sermon at Pentecost, that God will pour out His spirit in the last days; also in Rev. 11, onto the Two Witnesses will God pour out His spirit. These are probably referring to the same prophetic event, that there will be a great revival that numerous people all around the world to Jesus, especially those who have "fallen away" in 2 Thess. 2:3. That seems kind of contradictory to the message in 2 Thess. 2:7

There should be no confusion over who HE is.

Christ said He would send us a COMFORTER and HE is the Holy Spirit. HE is restraining satan and will do so with gradual release and ultimately, almost full release...... in the middle of the WEEK...tribulation.

That's why those who teach that satan is in control on this earth...is just wrong.
The HS is in control, allowing as God's plan dictates.

This conclusion is proven in JOB where satan is controlled ...........to a fine point while allowed to attack JOB.
The Bible does say that satan is....the PRINCE of this world.....but, not King.
 
Feb 24, 2022
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There should be no confusion over who HE is.

Christ said He would send us a COMFORTER and HE is the Holy Spirit. HE is restraining satan and will do so with gradual release and ultimately, almost full release...... in the middle of the WEEK...tribulation.

That's why those who teach that satan is in control on this earth...is just wrong.
The HS is in control, allowing as God's plan dictates.

This conclusion is proven in JOB where satan is controlled ...........to a fine point while allowed to attack JOB.
The Bible does say that satan is....the PRINCE of this world.....but, not King.
Yeah, that's definitely the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately "taken out of the way" is very likely to be a wrong translation, "genetai" (γένηται ) in the original Greek should be "coming to pass", which is the opposite of being "taken out of the way".
 
May 22, 2020
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Yeah, that's definitely the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately "taken out of the way" is very likely to be a wrong translation, "genetai" (γένηται ) in the original Greek should be "coming to pass", which is the opposite of being "taken out of the way".

...taken out of the way..... is the equivalent of ....estoppel...... effect. ...which amounts to man's way of removing a barrier.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Well, there's more here to agree with. 1 Thess 4 is the "classic rapture" passage, yet has NO MENTION of a glorified trip to heaven. That is significant.
What do you say about 2 Thess. 2:7?
Great question. Thank you.

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." There's some confusion over the identity of the "He". Most people believe that's referring to the Holy Spirit in the church, it will restrain Satan's power on earth until the great tribulation. However, it is clearly indicated in other places in the bible such as Peter's sermon at Pentecost, that God will pour out His spirit in the last days; also in Rev. 11, onto the Two Witnesses will God pour out His spirit. These are probably referring to the same prophetic event, that there will be a great revival that numerous people all around the world to Jesus, especially those who have "fallen away" in 2 Thess. 2:3. That seems kind of contradictory to the message in 2 Thess. 2:7
I was bought up in the teaching of a pretrib rapture, and I, too, thought the "he" was the Holy Spirit, who would be removed from the earth at the rapture. Once I grew up and came to my senses, I realized that would be impossible, for the reasons you have noted, plus the fact that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, just like the other members of the Trinity, and can't be taken out of the world.

And, His ministry is primarily one of conviction.

So then, just who is the "he" or "it" as some translations render the word?

The only thing that makes sense is a moral government, one that keeps evil at bay. The USA has been the most recent government that has been able to basically restrain evil governments. Many commentators today are convinced that Russia would not have invaded Ukraine IF IF IF Trump was still president.

And don't forget North Korea. Obama told Trump that Kim Jun Un was his biggest challenge and most people thought N Korea was on the verse of an attack somewhere.

Well, Trump came along and cooled things down.

So, it can't be the Holy Spirit. What else can it be, other than moral government? And I believe that the USA HAS been removed as a moral government that restrains evil.

So there you are.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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If you have a problem with that you have a problem with scripture. If you reject the concept that you need the NT in order to interpret the OT you reject scripture.
Nonsense. Since when do we need a NT to rightly interpret the prophecies pertaining to the Sons of Jacob spoken by Jacob himself? Or prophecies spoken by Moses pertaining to the nation Israel?

The fact is that prophecies pertaining to the nation Israel will be fulfilled to the very letter. There is absolutely no interpretation mystery involved whatsoever.

Evidently the interregnum of the Church has you mystified. You know......the gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Unfortunately "taken out of the way" is very likely to be a wrong translation, "genetai" (γένηται ) in the original Greek should be "coming to pass", which is the opposite of being "taken out of the way".
I think it should be translated "[the one restraining AT PRESENT, will restrain] until out of the midst he BECOME [or, come to be] [AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked BE REVEALED...]".




I don't believe this means that the Holy Spirit is REMOVED from the earth, but that His "restraining role" is lifted...


...which this verse (v.7b-8a) has parallel language to that of what we find expressed in Lamentations 2:3-4, esp v.3:

"he hath DRAWN BACK HIS RIGHT HAND from before the enemy..." (essentially saying, "have at 'em!"), that is, lifting His restraint.


And I say, especially correlating because of how vv.3-4's "IN FLAMING FIRE" and "poured out his fury like fire" also fits with what 2Th chapter 1 is also conveying ABOUT THAT VERY TIME-PERIOD Paul is talking about (see "IN FLAMING FIRE inflicting vengeance on those who...," which speaks of the TIME-PERIOD, not merely "a singular 24-hr day" the day of His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19. No. Not merely that "singular 24-hr day" point in time.)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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That seems kind of contradictory to the message in 2 Thess. 2:7
I don't see it as "kind of contradictory" (per what I just put in my previous post). IOW, He's not "REMOVED" from the earth. His "restraining role" in particular is "lifted" (in relation to "[and then shall] that Wicked BE REVEALED")... This doesn't mean He cannot do other things too (during the time period under discussion, commonly called the [7-yr] Tribulation Period)... Many ppl will be coming to faith during that time period, for example...
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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Why would any believer tell another believer who doesn't believe in a pretrib resurrection/rapture that they will be missing out?
Because you have not only been shown the truth and rejected it, but gone even further and continued to teach your errant philosophy to others.

If you really-really want to go through the Tribulation, then perhaps God will let you.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Because you have not only been shown the truth and rejected it, but gone even further and continued to teach your errant philosophy to others.

If you really-really want to go through the Tribulation, then perhaps God will let you.
I was just reading through 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 (per reviewing TDW's earlier post), and that chapter has pretrib rapture written all over it. Please someone tell me how in the world are these people missing it? o_O:rolleyes::oops:
 

oyster67

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