By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

if i may, i think i understand his premise and maybe i can state it more clearly and succinctly:

he believes that because of predestination, even while we were children of wrath and unbelieving, when we did evil and suffered for it, God was not punishing us as being condemned but chastising us as sons & daughters in order to bring us to faith and repentance.

in brief: if we belong to Him, we have always belong to Him, and we never suffered His wrath but His instruction, when He rebuked us. now that we do believe, we know this, tho before we came to faith, we didn't understand it as such.

we were never in any danger, because He chose us in Him to be redeemed, not to be destroyed.

I dont follow you !

Here's a list of your favorite non sequiturs and I've numbered them for you ...



Why don't you just reply "#3" or "#1" or "#6", etc., etc., when you are unable to refute the central point?

According to you, anyone who refutes your dogma is "in error" ... or "is confused" ... or "does not understand". It's certainly not you putting on your "personal spin"

Again, Vine's Expository Dictionary:

Prior to our faith in the Lord, we were by nature children of wrath. God chose us before the world began to be holy and blameless. However, before we made that good confession of faith, we were condemned and God's wrath rested upon us, the same as the wicked.

do you believe that man has any choice ?

because we used to be servants of sin like all people are but we repented and believed the gospel and got baptized into his death

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-18, 20-22‬

Paul’s talking to them as if they had repented from thier servitude to sin and had turned thier whole heart to obeying the gospel and now had their fruit of holiness

We have all of these dire warnings by Paul in the same letters hat dorectly tell
The church to repent of thier sin because they don’t want to partake of Gods wrath


“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1, 3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

with such doctrines and dire warnings it seems as if wrath ties Tom our behavior as well as what we had said repentance removes wrath ultimately
Because wrath is on all sin and ungodliness “we can’t keep partaking of the forbidden fruit and expect not to surely die “ we have to come to acknowledge sins poisonous effect on us

Of course:

Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,
"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat..."

How else could we "freely eat"?

When Nathan the prophet was sent to King David to confront him about his sin and give him God's word/judgment on the matter and David replied:

2 Samual 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

David was blessed to have the righteousness of Jesus, as did Abraham and even Adam as God declares Adam to be a son. (Luke 3:38)

That indicates the sons of God are never under God's wrath. They were fitted to be vessels of mercy from the beginning. That doesn't mean they don't get chastised, because God chastises his sons. That's not the same as being under wrath or fitted to be vessels of wrath.

Can man choose his nature? I don't think so. If he could choose his nature, he might (you could opine) possibly have a choice in whether he sins or not.

Worthless post!

How free is our 'free will' is the real question, yeah

Is your post not itself worthless? What do you hope to accomplish by making such a post? You have given no indication as to why you consider RDBD's post "worthless".

[QUOTE="brightfame52, post: 4552001, member: 303341"]Worthless post![/QUOTE]
oh! a new non sequitur ... we'll call this one #7.

I think you're confusing "free will" with process. There is a saving process that we go through. We don't believe until we are given faith. For those that say we can choose to believe or not are mixing the two as well.

So if by "when we do not reject God," you mean once he has circumcised and enlarged our heart and causes us to walk in his ways, then that is just another part of the process of his work in us. Not our choosing to go along with it or not.

Throughout the scriptures, God refers to Israel's fall because of unbelief. Certainly he holds them accountable, but in Jeremiah Chapters 6, 7 and 8 he explains that is his doing that causes them to see, but not see, or to hear, but not hear, to slumber.

Maybe this is all semantics, but the doctrine of free will is pernicious. That is part of the blindness to the truth. Those that believe they are freely choosing Jesus are under delusion. Yes, they know his Godhead, but they don't accept his precepts or truths. They are without excuse.