By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[posthuman]

Yea I’m not sure why the quote he used in the op didn’t register

“Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if i may, i think i understand his premise and maybe i can state it more clearly and succinctly:

he believes that because of predestination, even while we were children of wrath and unbelieving, when we did evil and suffered for it, God was not punishing us as being condemned but chastising us as sons & daughters in order to bring us to faith and repentance.

in brief: if we belong to Him, we have always belong to Him, and we never suffered His wrath but His instruction, when He rebuked us. now that we do believe, we know this, tho before we came to faith, we didn't understand it as such.

we were never in any danger, because He chose us in Him to be redeemed, not to be destroyed.

 

[brightfame52]

why is so much of scripture informing us about them?

I dont follow you !

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Duh Yeah. Who you think Paul is writing to in Eph ? The Elect, and they were by nature children of wrath as others !

According to Eph 1:1, the letter is written to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

and they were by nature children of wrath as others

yes ... in the sight of God, before the believer is born again there is no difference between the believer and unbeliever (and that includes all who are born again from time Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians to current time).

I know you want to consider yourself as "elect" from before the foundation of the world and separate from the pool of humankind, but this is an utterly false dogma.

There is only One Who is the Elect ... He alone is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You sound confused friend !

Here's a list of your favorite non sequiturs and I've numbered them for you ...

1, I dont think you understanding me​

2. I dont know what you talking about friend​

3. You just confused​

4. you have ignored the things I posted​

5. I can see the things I have posted went over your head, just like I never posted them​

6. you not paying much attention to what I have posted​

Why don't you just reply "#3" or "#1" or "#6", etc., etc., when you are unable to refute the central point?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yeah he is in error on that point, thats his personal spin on it.

According to you, anyone who refutes your dogma is "in error" ... or "is confused" ... or "does not understand". It's certainly not you putting on your "personal spin"

Again, Vine's Expository Dictionary:

Propitiation:​

​

[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]​

​

akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.​

​

https://studybible.info/vines/Propitiation​

 

[Ahwatukee]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

Prior to our faith in the Lord, we were by nature children of wrath. God chose us before the world began to be holy and blameless. However, before we made that good confession of faith, we were condemned and God's wrath rested upon us, the same as the wicked.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

if i may, i think i understand his premise and maybe i can state it more clearly and succinctly:

he believes that because of predestination, even while we were children of wrath and unbelieving, when we did evil and suffered for it, God was not punishing us as being condemned but chastising us as sons & daughters in order to bring us to faith and repentance.

in brief: if we belong to Him, we have always belong to Him, and we never suffered His wrath but His instruction, when He rebuked us. now that we do believe, we know this, tho before we came to faith, we didn't understand it as such.

we were never in any danger, because He chose us in Him to be redeemed, not to be destroyed.

do you believe that man has any choice ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Prior to our faith in the Lord, we were by nature children of wrath. God chose us before the world began to be holy and blameless. However, before we made that good confession of faith, we were condemned and God's wrath rested upon us, the same as the wicked.

because we used to be servants of sin like all people are but we repented and believed the gospel and got baptized into his death

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-18, 20-22‬

Paul’s talking to them as if they had repented from thier servitude to sin and had turned thier whole heart to obeying the gospel and now had their fruit of holiness

We have all of these dire warnings by Paul in the same letters hat dorectly tell
The church to repent of thier sin because they don’t want to partake of Gods wrath


“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1, 3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

with such doctrines and dire warnings it seems as if wrath ties Tom our behavior as well as what we had said repentance removes wrath ultimately
Because wrath is on all sin and ungodliness “we can’t keep partaking of the forbidden fruit and expect not to surely die “ we have to come to acknowledge sins poisonous effect on us

 

[posthuman]

do you believe that man has any choice ?

Of course:

Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,
"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat..."

How else could we "freely eat"?

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

OP is contradictory …

At one point we find this statement:

​

and later on, this statement:

​

OP's dogma does not align with Scripture. Yes, Paul was "under Gods Wrath" as shown in Eph 2:3 and Paul freely admitted he was "under Gods Wrath".

OP changes Scripture to suit a preconceived notion.

Whenever and wherever OP's dogma does not align with Scripture, OP needs to let go of the dogma and cleave to the truth of Scripture.

When Nathan the prophet was sent to King David to confront him about his sin and give him God's word/judgment on the matter and David replied:

2 Samual 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

David was blessed to have the righteousness of Jesus, as did Abraham and even Adam as God declares Adam to be a son. (Luke 3:38)

That indicates the sons of God are never under God's wrath. They were fitted to be vessels of mercy from the beginning. That doesn't mean they don't get chastised, because God chastises his sons. That's not the same as being under wrath or fitted to be vessels of wrath.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Of course:

Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,
"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat..."

How else could we "freely eat"?

Can man choose his nature? I don't think so. If he could choose his nature, he might (you could opine) possibly have a choice in whether he sins or not.

 

[brightfame52]

According to Eph 1:1, the letter is written to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.





yes ... in the sight of God, before the believer is born again there is no difference between the believer and unbeliever (and that includes all who are born again from time Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians to current time).

I know you want to consider yourself as "elect" from before the foundation of the world and separate from the pool of humankind, but this is an utterly false dogma.

There is only One Who is the Elect ... He alone is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens

Worthless post!

 

[posthuman]

Can man choose his nature? I don't think so. If he could choose his nature, he might (you could opine) possibly have a choice in whether he sins or not.

How free is our 'free will' is the real question, yeah

 

[Dino246]

Worthless post!

Is your post not itself worthless? What do you hope to accomplish by making such a post? You have given no indication as to why you consider RDBD's post "worthless".

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When Nathan the prophet was sent to King David to confront him about his sin and give him God's word/judgment on the matter and David replied:

2 Samual 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

David humbled himself before God when Nathan came and spoke to him. David did not reject God's chastening. Those who reject God when He sends His Word have no excuse when they stand before the judgment seat.

David was blessed to have the righteousness of Jesus, as did Abraham and even Adam as God declares Adam to be a son. (Luke 3:38)

Yes, and Adam suffered tremendously ... probably more than any of his descendants (ourselves included), as he had such a close relationship with God and by his own choice severed that relationship.

That indicates the sons of God are never under God's wrath. They were fitted to be vessels of mercy from the beginning. That doesn't mean they don't get chastised, because God chastises his sons. That's not the same as being under wrath or fitted to be vessels of wrath.

That is not what is stated in Ephesians 2:3:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

All believers are born as children of wrath, even as others. The only One Who was not born as one of the children of wrath, even as others is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ alone is God's Elect ... holy ... harmless ... undefiled ... separate from sinners ...

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens

All the rest of humankind begin as as children of wrath, even as others.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

[QUOTE="brightfame52, post: 4552001, member: 303341"]Worthless post![/QUOTE]
oh! a new non sequitur ... we'll call this one #7.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Can man choose his nature? I don't think so. If he could choose his nature, he might (you could opine) possibly have a choice in whether he sins or not.

Even in the new birth we don't "choose" the nature God bestows on the born again one. However, when we do not reject God, He freely gives His gift and seals us with that holy Spirit of promise.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

We are sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise after we believe ... we believe after we hear ...

If we reject what we hear, no sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Even in the new birth we don't "choose" the nature God bestows on the born again one. However, when we do not reject God, He freely gives His gift and seals us with that holy Spirit of promise.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

We are sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise after we believe ... we believe after we hear ...

If we reject what we hear, no sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise

I think you're confusing "free will" with process. There is a saving process that we go through. We don't believe until we are given faith. For those that say we can choose to believe or not are mixing the two as well.

So if by "when we do not reject God," you mean once he has circumcised and enlarged our heart and causes us to walk in his ways, then that is just another part of the process of his work in us. Not our choosing to go along with it or not.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think you're confusing "free will" with process. There is a saving process that we go through. We don't believe until we are given faith. For those that say we can choose to believe or not are mixing the two as well.

So if by "when we do not reject God," you mean once he has circumcised and enlarged our heart and causes us to walk in his ways, then that is just another part of the process of his work in us. Not our choosing to go along with it or not.

I am speaking of what God reveals to us in Romans 1:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to hold back, to restrain.

In vs 19, we see what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is mankind who restrains. It is not God Who withholds.

In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why they are without excuse.

There is no excuse come judgment day.

Under your scenario, mankind has an excuse because God has withheld that which is needed from some.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I am speaking of what God reveals to us in Romans 1:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to hold back, to restrain.

In vs 19, we see what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is mankind who restrains. It is not God Who withholds.

In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why they are without excuse.

There is no excuse come judgment day.

Under your scenario, mankind has an excuse because God has withheld that which is needed from some.

Throughout the scriptures, God refers to Israel's fall because of unbelief. Certainly he holds them accountable, but in Jeremiah Chapters 6, 7 and 8 he explains that is his doing that causes them to see, but not see, or to hear, but not hear, to slumber.

Maybe this is all semantics, but the doctrine of free will is pernicious. That is part of the blindness to the truth. Those that believe they are freely choosing Jesus are under delusion. Yes, they know his Godhead, but they don't accept his precepts or truths. They are without excuse.