Eph 2:3
3 Among whom also
we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and
were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the
pronoun we. ----------Paul was speaking about them, himself inclusive, prior to becoming believers
He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4 --
--- yes, but prior to their becoming believers. The question is, who are the chosen ones in Christ Jesus?
4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
What did Christ tell us, "be perfect even as your father which is in heaven is perfect" God tells us, be holy for I am holy. So, from the foundation of the world, his plan for us is to be holy and without blame before him in love. And, he has given us the path of life that will lead us to holiness which is basically to be and remain in him. Whosoever follows this path, he has chosen from the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were
under Gods wrath.
So what does Paul mean here by this designation "
were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?
Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 1:18 tells us that "the wrath of God is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" If we say we are believers and we follow unbelievers to indulge in their ungodly ways without repentance, the wrath of God will fall not only on them but on us too. There is no respect of persons with God.
God is Justice. He renders to every man according to his deeds. Hence, we behold His goodness and severity (wrath). On them who follow after ungodliness, His severity or wrath while on them who follow righteousness, He bestows His goodness if they continue in his goodness, otherwise they also shall be cut off. (Romans 11:22),
Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are. --
don't understand your meaning
And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are,
they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.
And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10 -------
not after becoming a believer
10 For if,
when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
off course. As sinners, he died for us and reconciled us with God. As believers, our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin but walk in newness of life. We are dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Col 1:21
21 And you, that were sometime alienated
and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled ---
see above comment
The word for enemies here in the above is the word
echthros :
From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)
- hated, odious, hateful
- hostile, hating, and opposing another
- used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
- opposing (God) in the mind
And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !
The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7
7 Because
the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
And Paul continues in verse 8 to say -- so then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. This is not about the elect or the chosen as you are saying because the elect/chosen has the Spirit of God in Him because of righteousness and does not operate within the realm of carnal mind.
He is in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them
, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2
it is written, mercy rejoices over judgement. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Gods plan of salvation is for the whole world. So his grace (love and kindness) is available to all. It is a gift and a promise fulfilled. His love, Mercy peace etc continue to be available for us all.
So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !
... comments surely could not be reproof and correction to bring you back to the truth of God's Word from the evasive rabbit trail you're on ...
