By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

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Mar 23, 2016
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Yes, they know his Godhead, but they don't accept his precepts or truths. They are without excuse.
The ones who are without excuse are those whom God tells us are without excuse and Romans 1 clearly indicates that those who are without excuse are those who hold the truth (Greek katechō ... which means to suppress, restrain) - Rom 1:18.

God even tells us that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them (Rom 1:20).

manifest - Greek phaneros = to be plainly recognized or known. God has showed (same Greek word phaneros) it unto them. They suppress, restrain what God wants them to know.

They are without excuse because they reject that which is clearly seen ... God's eternal power and Godhead.

Read the text ... God doesn't withhold anything from them. They suppress, restrain, reject all God reveals.

That is why they are without excuse.



 
Apr 26, 2021
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The ones who are without excuse are those whom God tells us are without excuse and Romans 1 clearly indicates that those who are without excuse are those who hold the truth (Greek katechō ... which means to suppress, restrain) - Rom 1:18.

God even tells us that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them (Rom 1:20).

manifest - Greek phaneros = to be plainly recognized or known. God has showed (same Greek word phaneros) it unto them. They suppress, restrain what God wants them to know.

They are without excuse because they reject that which is clearly seen ... God's eternal power and Godhead.

Read the text ... God doesn't withhold anything from them. They suppress, restrain, reject all God reveals.

That is why they are without excuse.
Romans Chapter 9 discusses this subject.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Romans Chapter 9 discusses this subject.
Why jump from Romans 1:20 to Romans 9? Why not let Romans 1 explain what occurs ... read until we understand what God wants us to know ... then do the same with Rom 2, then Rom 3, then Rom 4 ... and read with no preconceived notions. Let God reveal His truth.


 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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OP is saying Paul and believers were NEVER under God's wrath.
Which actually contradicts the quoted passage! All of humanity was under God's wrath. And those who do not believe on Christ remain under wrath. Those who believe are no longer under condemnation.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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Why jump from Romans 1:20 to Romans 9? Why not let Romans 1 explain what occurs ... read until we understand what God wants us to know ... then do the same with Rom 2, then Rom 3, then Rom 4 ... and read with no preconceived notions. Let God reveal His truth.
Because I put them in context. Without Romans 9, you would have to believe that all of God's word is plain, clear, understood by every single person, not only from reading it, but also from God putting perfect knowledge and understanding in their hearts so they have no excuse should they choose of themselves to "reject" the truth.

The logical question becomes, why all the parables and dark sayings? And Romans Chapter 9 explains that.

Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
 

14meatcc

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I think that Paul is referring to the human knowledge that before you are born again, you had no way of knowing you were a child of wrath until you receive the Spirit, then you would be able to discern the difference of being once under wrath. This could also be used as a statement that others that are not born again are under wrath until they are. It's another Avenue in explaining to the Jews that salvation is not in the keeping of the law, but through believing the Gospel. I dunno, I'm very tired and have major turmoil distracting me constantly. If you don't agree, then I'm probably wrong. I'm just trying to distract myself from the very sad news I recently received.
 

14meatcc

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Feb 17, 2020
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San Diego
Which actually contradicts the quoted passage! All of humanity was under God's wrath. And those who do not believe on Christ remain under wrath. Those who believe are no longer under condemnation.
I wonder why scripture says that the ones who do not believe are condemned already.
Don't they have a chance for God to impute the Spirit in them and give them belief, or is that a way of saying the ones who do not believe will never believe because they are not chosen for eternal life?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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...is that a way of saying the ones who do not believe will never believe because they are not chosen for eternal life?
No. It simply means that they choose not to believe. Let's take a case closer to home. The majority of people are choosing not be believe that the SCAMDEMIC is indeed a scam, and the bogus vaccines are indeed bogus. That is a choice, since there is enough information for everyone to know the truth.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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dino

What do you hope to accomplish by making such a post?
Its pitiful you dont already know the answer to that friend !
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Because I put them in context.

...

And Romans Chapter 9 explains that.
Jumping from Rom 1:20 to Rom 9 is not putting anything "in context". In fact, when we do that, we are taking verses out of the context within which they sit and where the meaning is fully explained.

What you're saying now is that when God says that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them ... He really did not show them ...

and when God says For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead the invisible things of Him are really not clearly seen ...

in other words, another excuse for the one who holds [suppresses, restrains] the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). :rolleyes:




OrphanedRepublican said:
Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Good request for all to ask of God.



 
Mar 23, 2016
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dino

Its pitiful you dont already know the answer to that friend !
ah ... but @Dino246 does know the answer. He knows that you are not interested in truth of Scripture and that you cherry-pick through verses in order to prop up your dogma.

Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position. Cherry picking may be committed intentionally or unintentionally. This fallacy is a major problem in public debate.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Of course:

Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,
"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat..."

How else could we "freely eat"?

:)
amen . So if we have a choice , how should we look at this type of doctrine

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what I mean is the aspect of being predestined to be adopted as children . Do we have a choice in this ? Or does it have nothing to do with the choice we make at this point

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when you hearken back to adams choice being free to eat all the fruit in Eden but forbidden from the one . We have that choice also in regards to who we serve after being baptized for remission.

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16, 20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬


What I’m saying is because God knows who is going to be there in the end doesn’t change the fact that we were all objects of wrath before we believed the gospel.

it seems to Me as if the ops poo t is that Christians were never the objects by nature of Gods wrath because Christians were predestined they never could have been in the group of the children of wrath

which is not correct as many have stated in this thread . The glory of the gospel is that we did it all wrong we earned condemnation by our sins we are lost forever . But he in his great love for us came into the mess we created and is saving us from the wrath that we are justly due for our sins

he’s saving sinners who were certainly covered without escape in the wrath of God and had no hope in death. Wrath is upon all creation because of
Mans sin , and those who continue serving sin remain in the sights of Gods coming wrath

we have to choose him , this then becomes the evidence of predestination , but the doctrine does t tell us predestination changes our part in faith from Our perspective it’s about working out our salvstion with fear and trembling



“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so he’s telling thre same people he told about predestination instructing they about working out thier salvetion with fear and trembling

my point is the election is based on who responds to the gospel and bears its fruit. Obedience is part of working out our salvation “ having been predestination to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus Christ “ we need to believe and pursue him
 
Apr 26, 2021
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Jumping from Rom 1:20 to Rom 9 is not putting anything "in context". In fact, when we do that, we are taking verses out of the context within which they sit and where the meaning is fully explained.

What you're saying now is that when God says that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them ... He really did not show them ...

and when God says For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead the invisible things of Him are really not clearly seen ...

in other words, another excuse for the one who holds [suppresses, restrains] the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). :rolleyes:





Good request for all to ask of God.
Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


What do you think those verses mean?

All people instinctively know there is a greater and unknown power than us. God has made that known of them. They know there is even a spiritual entity or entities. People know with their heart that there is something else, even beyond what they see with their eyes.

A remote cannibal in Central America knows a greater powerful being exists. Somehow we all know we aren't the top power of creation. Why is that?

The answer, I believe, is Romans 1:19-20.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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I wonder why scripture says that the ones who do not believe are condemned already.
Don't they have a chance for God to impute the Spirit in them and give them belief, or is that a way of saying the ones who do not believe will never believe because they are not chosen for eternal life?
Look at how Balaam became a prophet. Balaam was a wicked "for hire" soothsayer who was under wrath. God filled Balaam with his Holy Spirit to speak to Balak. Balaam spoke righteously and truthfully to Balak. But, he was under judgment and was put away from the land by Israel.

Did Balaam have a chance to believe and be saved even when the Holy Spirit was put in him?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

What do you think those verses mean?

All people instinctively know there is a greater and unknown power than us. God has made that known of them. They know there is even a spiritual entity or entities. People know with their heart that there is something else, even beyond what they see with their eyes.

A remote cannibal in Central America knows a greater powerful being exists. Somehow we all know we aren't the top power of creation. Why is that?

The answer, I believe, is Romans 1:19-20.
What happened to man that had us lost and brought Gods wrath ?

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:18, 21-22, 24-26, 29-32‬

if you continue on reading Paul gets deeper regarding judgement

“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;

for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he doesn’t really get into the answer until chapter 6 -8 when he talks about being baptized and dying to the law being raised to new life in Christ

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul gives a lot of information his letters are comprehensive he spends chapters explaining issues and then chapters explaining the solutions
 
Apr 26, 2021
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What happened to man that had us lost and brought Gods wrath ?

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:18, 21-22, 24-26, 29-32‬

if you continue on reading Paul gets deeper regarding judgement

“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;

for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he doesn’t really get into the answer until chapter 6 -8 when he talks about being baptized and dying to the law being raised to new life in Christ

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul gives a lot of information his letters are comprehensive he spends chapters explaining issues and then chapters explaining the solutions
I think you're off subject here. You're replying to a response I made to someone else on a different subject.
What happened to man that had us lost and brought Gods wrath ?

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:18, 21-22, 24-26, 29-32‬

if you continue on reading Paul gets deeper regarding judgement

“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;

for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he doesn’t really get into the answer until chapter 6 -8 when he talks about being baptized and dying to the law being raised to new life in Christ

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul gives a lot of information his letters are comprehensive he spends chapters explaining issues and then chapters explaining the solutions
You are replying to something I said to someone else on another subject. But as long as we are being admonished about how "Paul gives a lot of information in his letters that are comprehensive and he spends chapters explaining issues," he does so as well in Romans Chapter 9.

But as to your specific question? Man is born in the image of Adam.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,270
550
113
ah ... but @Dino246 does know the answer. He knows that you are not interested in truth of Scripture and that you cherry-pick through verses in order to prop up your dogma.

Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position. Cherry picking may be committed intentionally or unintentionally. This fallacy is a major problem in public debate.
I am giving you truth of scripture, you all cant receive it.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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All people instinctively know there is a greater and unknown power than us. God has made that known of them. They know there is even a spiritual entity or entities. People know with their heart that there is something else, even beyond what they see with their eyes.

A remote cannibal in Central America knows a greater powerful being exists. Somehow we all know we aren't the top power of creation. Why is that?

The answer, I believe, is Romans 1:19-20.
Yes. However, those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, reject what God has revealed and do what we see in verse 20

Romans 1:20 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.