By Nature Children of Wrath as others !
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Your emphatic insistence does not make it so.
When anyone provides Scripture which refutes your dogma, rather than address the truth as shown in Scripture, you claim:
Everyone understands your assertions ... we are not confused ... you have not been ignored ... what you have posted has not gone over anyone's head ... we have paid attention to what you have posted ...
Rather than your empty claims that you are misunderstood ... ignored ... have superior understanding ... why don't you address the Scripture which has revealed that your assertions have no basis in the truth of Scripture? ... hmmm? ... what's up with that?
When anyone provides Scripture which refutes your dogma, rather than address the truth as shown in Scripture, you claim:
Everyone understands your assertions ... we are not confused ... you have not been ignored ... what you have posted has not gone over anyone's head ... we have paid attention to what you have posted ...
Rather than your empty claims that you are misunderstood ... ignored ... have superior understanding ... why don't you address the Scripture which has revealed that your assertions have no basis in the truth of Scripture? ... hmmm? ... what's up with that?
See even though the Elect will experience another nature via the New Birth, which will grant unto them Faith and Repentance and other fruit of the Spirit unto good works, Yet this new nature wasnt necessary to legally justify them or acquit them from Gods Wrath, that was accomplished solely by the merits of Christs obedience unto death on their behalf Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Isa 53:11
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. “My servant will acquit many, for he carried their sins. NET
Thats why its declared He acuits/justifies the ungodly Rom 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 7
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Isa 53:11
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. “My servant will acquit many, for he carried their sins. NET
Thats why its declared He acuits/justifies the ungodly Rom 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 7
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Your emphatic insistence does not make it so.
When anyone provides Scripture which refutes your dogma, rather than address the truth as shown in Scripture, you claim:
Everyone understands your assertions ... we are not confused ... you have not been ignored ... what you have posted has not gone over anyone's head ... we have paid attention to what you have posted ...
Rather than your empty claims that you are misunderstood ... ignored ... have superior understanding ... why don't you address the Scripture which has revealed that your assertions have no basis in the truth of Scripture? ... hmmm? ... what's up with that?
When anyone provides Scripture which refutes your dogma, rather than address the truth as shown in Scripture, you claim:
Everyone understands your assertions ... we are not confused ... you have not been ignored ... what you have posted has not gone over anyone's head ... we have paid attention to what you have posted ...
Rather than your empty claims that you are misunderstood ... ignored ... have superior understanding ... why don't you address the Scripture which has revealed that your assertions have no basis in the truth of Scripture? ... hmmm? ... what's up with that?
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Yes, we must believe on Him Who justifies the ungodly ... our faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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Nope. You have not given any reason why you disagree with me and/or others who have replied to your dogma. You ignore Scripture provided by myself and others and claim you are ignored ... or we don't understand ... or we're confused ... or your wisdom is so far above our ability to comprehend ...
why not share the things that are in the Bible for the church and not try to
Myself decide what’s worth hearing and how I should ignore the warnings and all that ? That’s not at all how I look at it I can pretend God would
Never punish people for sin , but it’s a lie so I rather when I’m engaging in a canoversation about scripture accept it all as truth
I would never want to mislead anyone into denying this part
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
I understand people don’t want to hear about repenting of thier own sins but it’s a foundational principle throughout the old and new testaments . It’s there because we’re supposed to
Learn about and share it with the rest of scripture .
we’re actually told to preach the truth that God made known in the gospel through Jesus words . which includes a warning of eternal Damnation if we do not repent . It’s one thing to “ preach Gods goodness “ it’s another to reject the truth about eternal Judgement on sinners .
The false prophets in the ot began to tell the people God was too good to ever bring to pass his warnings if they didn’t repent , it’s what lead to thier demise
It seems you want to speak of remission of sins , but without hearing about repentance . that one verse doesn’t exclude the verses it is within , you want to accept that verse and reject the rest of the chapter ?
So you are saying we should wuote the verse saying gods goodness leads to repentance but e. Ignore the rest he’s teaching about eternal judgement and repentance ?
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:4-11 KJV
your view is Paul should have just said Gods really good ? Why should we throw out 85 percent of what he said and pretend Gods too good to do what he said ?
Myself decide what’s worth hearing and how I should ignore the warnings and all that ? That’s not at all how I look at it I can pretend God would
Never punish people for sin , but it’s a lie so I rather when I’m engaging in a canoversation about scripture accept it all as truth
I would never want to mislead anyone into denying this part
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
I understand people don’t want to hear about repenting of thier own sins but it’s a foundational principle throughout the old and new testaments . It’s there because we’re supposed to
Learn about and share it with the rest of scripture .
we’re actually told to preach the truth that God made known in the gospel through Jesus words . which includes a warning of eternal Damnation if we do not repent . It’s one thing to “ preach Gods goodness “ it’s another to reject the truth about eternal Judgement on sinners .
The false prophets in the ot began to tell the people God was too good to ever bring to pass his warnings if they didn’t repent , it’s what lead to thier demise
It seems you want to speak of remission of sins , but without hearing about repentance . that one verse doesn’t exclude the verses it is within , you want to accept that verse and reject the rest of the chapter ?
So you are saying we should wuote the verse saying gods goodness leads to repentance but e. Ignore the rest he’s teaching about eternal judgement and repentance ?
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:4-11 KJV
your view is Paul should have just said Gods really good ? Why should we throw out 85 percent of what he said and pretend Gods too good to do what he said ?
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Sinners who Christ died for, His Sheep/Elect, before they believe, God by Christs death for them has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
That word propitiation hilasmos:
a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
That word propitiation hilasmos:
a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,
removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.nal
So therefore if we believe Christs death was truly a propitiation Godward, its impossible for anyone Christ died for, namely His Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, to ever be under His Wrath, for that outright contradicts Christs propitiating death for them ! Remember Gods wrath is the punishment for our sins Eph 5:6; Col 3:6 !
I understand that is your claim. However, the first Scripture reference in your OP does not confirm your assertion.
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
All born again believers begin their lives in this world as "dead in trespasses and sins" living our lives "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".
All born again believers were at one point the children of wrath, even as others (i.e. unbelievers).
I know that your dogma teaches you that you were somehow separate from the "children of disobedience" because you have been taught that you were "elect" from before the foundation of the world.
However, newsflash ... until you are born again, there is no difference between you and the "children of disobedience".
Again, I reiterate, God's desire is as follows: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die (Ez 33:11).
God's desire is that the wicked turn from his way and live. The wicked must turn from his evil way.
Your claim is that if the wicked is one of God's "elect", that wicked one is not under God's wrath. However, Ez 33:11 states that the wicked one must turn from his way. God does not turn the wicked one ... the wicked one turns..
Having said that, we also know that it is God's lovingkindness that draws us to Him:
Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
All born again believers begin their lives in this world as "dead in trespasses and sins" living our lives "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".
All born again believers were at one point the children of wrath, even as others (i.e. unbelievers).
I know that your dogma teaches you that you were somehow separate from the "children of disobedience" because you have been taught that you were "elect" from before the foundation of the world.
However, newsflash ... until you are born again, there is no difference between you and the "children of disobedience".
Again, I reiterate, God's desire is as follows: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die (Ez 33:11).
God's desire is that the wicked turn from his way and live. The wicked must turn from his evil way.
Your claim is that if the wicked is one of God's "elect", that wicked one is not under God's wrath. However, Ez 33:11 states that the wicked one must turn from his way. God does not turn the wicked one ... the wicked one turns..
Having said that, we also know that it is God's lovingkindness that draws us to Him:
Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
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reneweddaybyday said:
Nope. You have not given any reason why you disagree with me and/or others who have replied to your dogma. You ignore Scripture provided by myself and others and claim you are ignored ... or we don't understand ... or we're confused ... or your wisdom is so far above our ability to comprehend ...
Your points do not prove anything. Your surmisings have no basis in Truth. You have been shown that your dogma does not align with Scripture.
According to Vine's Expository Dictionary:
Christ's death was not a "propitiation Godward" (i.e. from man to God).
Again, from Vines:
Nor is Christ's death limited to those you have decided He died for.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
Again, from Vines:
When God says the whole world, God means the whole world.
The Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for the whole world. In offering Himself as a sacrifice, His life was sufficient to cover every single person who has ever been born ... from time of Adam to now to future born children.
That is the value of His sacrifice.
Propitiation:
[ B-2,Noun,G2434, hilasmos ]
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.
Christ's death was not a "propitiation Godward" (i.e. from man to God).
Again, from Vines:
It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided.
Nor is Christ's death limited to those you have decided He died for.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
Again, from Vines:
What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe.
When God says the whole world, God means the whole world.
The Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for the whole world. In offering Himself as a sacrifice, His life was sufficient to cover every single person who has ever been born ... from time of Adam to now to future born children.
That is the value of His sacrifice.