Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

Thank you

Yes they have.

You became a christian through the Pentecostal movement, you and half of America, they are one of the few churches that are saving souls. All Africa has emerged out of the dark ages through the witness of the Pentecostalists ... they are now sending missionaries to England. India is opening it's doors after all these centuries. China is being swept by the Holy Spirit.

I see the same things you do in the western Pentecostal movement, I think it is important to not desert the field but to stay and fight.

There are plenty of good balanced Pentecostal assemblies ... nobody has to chase wildfire.

Africa was "saved" through the Word of Faith cult that has infiltrated charismatic churches decades ago.
You move under the false assumption that the promise of believing wealth into existence to people dying from poverty equates to genuine conversion. I don't see it that way.
These groups also drive many Out of church and away from faith due to false promises and the issues I mentioned in my post.

Also you fly the flag that if something is a little right that makes it good. I also don't see it that way. If you give directions to someone and you give a left instead of a right, that will mislead them.

So I'm not going to go with the notion that because they evoke false conversions, or even if genuine in some cases, that then bringing them into a guilt and fear ridden church where they perpetually chase God (not fires) and never catch Him as a good thing.
That only plants in shallow soil and the plants whither away.

You are most welcome. And will say I do respect you and your position. I like pithy, you qualify.

This is clearly eisegesis. There is absolutely no reason to think this is what Paul was getting at without reading that idea back into the passage. It is a very anachronistic interpretation, assuming Paul thought like 19th or 20th century cessationists, when there is no evidence for that way of thinking in the first place. The 'eye of flesh' supports carnal interpretations such as those that are averse to the power of God.

If you look in the book at other passages, in I Corinthians 1, Paul mentions themes he would address in later chapters like 12-14, utterance and knowledge. He writes, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' In this book, a theme is looking forward to a certain eschatological event, in chapter 1, the coming of Christ, and in chapter 15, the resurrection and transformation that occurs 'at His coming.' This is what Paul is looking forward to in the book. It makes sense to interpretation I Corinthians 13 in light of these facts, especially since Paul wishes they come behind in no spiritual gift while waiting for Christ's return...when the gifts he was going to address in the passage include words of knowledge, tongues, and prophecy.



The issue is not whether our generation, the world outside, is evil and adulterous. Wickedness abounds. The issue is whether you should apply that verse toward saints who believe in spiritual gifts to somehow imply that all who hold to a biblical views on spiritual gifts are evil and adulterous by virtue oftheir holding to these views.


Jesus was speaking to the Jews who were the ones to whom God revealed Himself by signs and wonders. Now God reveals Himself through His word which He values equal to Himself.



You sound skeptical, and the tone of many of your posts comes off as scoffing. I hope the latter sentence does not apply to you. It is not a Biblical statement either. If it were, Paul would have remained in unbelief.



That last statement, in particular, is strange, but does explain your approach to Bible interpretation.

You create a false dichotomy. Spiritual gifts are not at odds with evangelism. The Bible indicates that we have need of the various members of the body of Christ, including those who prophecy and those who speak in tongues. One part of a body does not say to another, "I have not need of thee' and you should not have that attitude toward other members of the body of Christ who have these gifts. See I Corinthians 12.

Please rip out 1 Corinthians out of your bible. Because nowhere does it say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped.

But for the sake of good convo, I will ask you what were the gifts of the Holy Spirit for found in 1cor chapter 12 and the Gifts of Christ found in Eph 4:7-12?

if you have an outlier then it behooves you to present it.

The good thing is we kept studying and searching the word...

You and others,
have not provided from the word of God where it states the gifts
of the Holy Spirit are not for today

It does say that three will end. I guess you have better cut those verses out of your bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You have the misconception that tongues have not ceased. The Holy Spirit was not given by Christ to bestow gifts to men. He was given to bring men to a saving knowledge of Christ.

Your theology is all about you and only a passing mention of Christ. You have it all backwards. I cannot stop you from going on in unbelief. It is the sign of the times.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It does say that three will end. I guess you have better cut those verses out of your bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Here is my book that shows the difference between signs and wonders produced by the Holy Spirit in support of the Gospel of Christ, and the false signs and wonders you are talking about in your post.

Yes the devil can bring fire down from heaven mebbe, but he can't open the eyes of the blind. if he could do stuff like that he would have copied Christ and the apostle

learn

a good tree produces good fruit
an evil tree produces evil fruit

Jesus said this in relation to the charge by the Pharisees that He did His miracles by beelzebub.

Have you ever seen a tongue followed by an interpretation in church?

I have never even uttered anything prophetic on these boards and you are talking about my demonic delusions?

That is wild

Regarding the John MacArthur video you link here, I agree with him that the word of God must be interpreted properly. I would disagree on a number of lesser issue. One is the idea that one verse has one interpretation. It is pretty clear from scripture that this is not the case. God called both the tribe of Ephraim and Christ His Son out of Egypt, for example. Some prophetic statements had a short-term application and also a broader Messianic meaning. Deuteronomy 18 had a section that applies to prophets in general and in particular to That Prophet, the Lord Jesus Christ. Israel was required to hear prophets, but especially the Prophet like unto Moses. The Israelites were to stone certain offenders, but a verse about putting away the evil among you also applies to dealing with sin in the church. The apostles did not follow John MacArthur's narrow principle in the way they interpreted scripture as is obvious from the text of scripture.

John MacArthur has had his own shortcomings when it comes to hermeneutics related to the topic of this thread. I have not read his 2012 or 2013 book on the subject. But his 1990's cessationist-promoting book was eisegesis. Like he says in the video, people can have wrong interpretations because of presupposition. His argument was based on presupposition. If one does not presuppose that for some reason the teachings of New Testament scripture on spiritual gifts are supposed to be gone by now, there is no reason to accept his argument. His argument basically boiled down to the idea that because God did miracles at certain time periods in the past, He will not do so today. Stripped of all the verbiage, it is not a reasonable argument. Scripture on the subject does not cease to be true because of how he clustered God's miracles.... pre-Pentecost at that. We live in a different era from the patterns he described in the book, this era after the Spirit has begun to be poured out upon all flesh.

I did not hear JM make this argument, but someone else at the conference his church hosted which promoted his book argued that II Timothy 3:16 was an argument against the contemporary role of the gift of prophecy. This is clearly poor hermeneutics.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

If we consider the original intent, this was written during a time when prophecy was active. Don't we accept that II Timothy 4 is prophetically inspired? If revelation ended when Paul wrote 3:17 there, then chapter 4 would not be inspired. Neither would the book of Revelation be inspired.

The way they were interpreting the verse displayed a lack of reading comprehension, also. The verse does not say that scripture is all that is given...that the man of God may be... thorouthly furnished. Rather, it says all scripture is given.... etc. This passage does not say that 'scripture is all you need.' If the passage is used to say that you don't need anything because you have scripture, and therefore you do not need prophecy-- which other scripture indicates is profitable and needful to the church, why not apply that same sort of 'reasoning to other things.'

If you can say you don't need spiritual gifts because you have the Bible because of this verse, why not say you don't need love because scripture is all we need, or you don't need preaching or teaching because scripture is all you need.

But the passage does not say that scripture is all you need.

JM has a set of presuppositions about the role of scripture and what he thinks 'sola scriptura' means. In order for that to be true, scriptures like I Corinthians 12 have to no longer be true and valid for the church today, but he does not have any other scripture that cancels out those other passages to present.

He also interpreted 'that which is perfect' to refer to the eternal state in his interpretation of I Corinthians 13 in his 1990's book.

Regarding the video, MacArthur only half knows what he is talking about sometimes when it comes to this topic. I would guess the man who said the Lord gave him his life verse because he was born in a year that corresponded to the verse probably did mean that as a method of hermenuetics. If he did, the host and his wife may have comically been pointing out the flaw of that type of reasoning in an indirect manner. Not everything on a talk show on these networks is intended as hermeneutics. In my experience with Charismatics and Pentecostals is that 'Bible roulette' is not typical behavior. Maybe I have heard of it once from an individual, not from the pulpit. But John MacArthur is no stranger to straw men when it comes to this subject.

Occasionally, encounter people who really like John MacArthur who seem to lack any ability to reason through a text of scripture who seem to post more from rhetoric and emotion who are light on well-reasoned arguments. Maybe they like him to do their thinking for them. I have encountered people like this who liked Rebecca Brown books and also back in the day with people who followed Arnold Murray and his strange teachings.

I would encourage you not to be like that, to interact with the posts directed toward you and to prayerfully meditate on what the scriptures presented to you mean.

You are most welcome. And will say I do respect you and your position. I like pithy, you qualify.

Sure I have, I’ve seen a lot of things and I’m in no way saying the gifts have ceased not at all . I’m saying the church is lacking faith to see those things being that we are so divided and scattered in our belief of the gospel

the gifts of God are irrevocable and he gives gifts every time someone receives the holy spirit even today Godnis empowering a believer with gifts given for the edification of the church.

I believe we’re so divided that when someone has a gift and begins to excercise the gift others seem to have a certain dostain or want to reject the person . To me it’s as simple as the many differing ideas we all have of doctrine it’s hard to agree on anything even though it’s all written down for us to learn and grow in together

but I don’t know it seems we’re lacking faith because we’re lacking true doctrine to me but I’m no one special or appointed just another believer discussing things in a forum that matter to me

I believe the gifts are being left in used because we lack the gospel of the kingdom because we rarely hear it often it becomes an argument about the cross eliminating the word that preceded it and offered salvation

it seems like faith and the gospel go hand in hand and when we lack faith miracle power isn’t prevalent