You are most welcome. And will say I do respect you and your position. I like pithy, you qualify.
Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
- Thread starter ronair
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There ya go, exactly what I have witnessed in smaller gatherings within pentecostalism, Chaos & Confusion in self glorification (Sad)
Africa was "saved" through the Word of Faith cult that has infiltrated charismatic churches decades ago.You became a christian through the Pentecostal movement, you and half of America, they are one of the few churches that are saving souls. All Africa has emerged out of the dark ages through the witness of the Pentecostalists ... they are now sending missionaries to England. India is opening it's doors after all these centuries. China is being swept by the Holy Spirit.
I see the same things you do in the western Pentecostal movement, I think it is important to not desert the field but to stay and fight.
There are plenty of good balanced Pentecostal assemblies ... nobody has to chase wildfire.
You move under the false assumption that the promise of believing wealth into existence to people dying from poverty equates to genuine conversion. I don't see it that way.
These groups also drive many Out of church and away from faith due to false promises and the issues I mentioned in my post.
Also you fly the flag that if something is a little right that makes it good. I also don't see it that way. If you give directions to someone and you give a left instead of a right, that will mislead them.
So I'm not going to go with the notion that because they evoke false conversions, or even if genuine in some cases, that then bringing them into a guilt and fear ridden church where they perpetually chase God (not fires) and never catch Him as a good thing.
That only plants in shallow soil and the plants whither away.
Ok, Africa was saved by the word of faith cult? Then they were not saved? Yet we know full well that Voodoo is very real there. And cultural practices affect how one minister there. have you served in Africa? have you been there? because Nigeria has seen a revival and much help from the local church in the United States. We have 10 % of our church are from Africa and they go with other and minister all the time. We have built 5 wells to bring water to the African people. many of them are doctors in our church and have and highly educated and pentecostal.
You have the misconception that tongues have not ceased. The Holy Spirit was not given by Christ to bestow gifts to men. He was given to bring men to a saving knowledge of Christ.
Your theology is all about you and only a passing mention of Christ. You have it all backwards. I cannot stop you from going on in unbelief. It is the sign of the times.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Very Encouraging, I believe I can present {outlier?} the Biblical
answer for my view in the continualist/cessationist debate...
------------------------------------------
Paul Christiansen said: "Context Is Vital
So, firstly, we must examine the Scriptures being quoted by teachers who are opposing the supernatural move of the Spirit to see the context, to whom and to what purpose they were written. Next we need to see how we can recognise {sp?} false prophets, teaching, signs and wonders manifest in these modern times, and whether they are consistent with the Scriptures that are being quoted by those opposing the current manifestation of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit.
But, he also states:
"There is no way that a person who has no experience in the spiritual gifts can know the difference between the genuine and misuse of spiritual gifts. Because of this, we can totally ignore any comments from Cessationists!"
Wait, I am defined as a cessationist because I oppose
The Supernatural Moving Of The Holy Spirit?
Then, Exactly WHAT should I call:
Baptism "BY" The Holy Spirit, The Washing Of
Regeneration, Forgiveness of sins, The Circumcision of the
heart Without hands, Translation Into The Body Of CHRIST,
And, Receiving The Indwelling Holy Spirit, Which Is God's
Operation For His Eternal Salvation, According To His HOLY Word?
I certainly am NOT opposed to That "Supernatural Moving
Of The Holy Spirit." So, therefore, I Cannot be defined as
a "cessationist"? Oh, what he {PC} Really Meant {under the
Assumption} "the gifts are active Today, Under GRACE,
is that:
"I oppose The Gifts of tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge,
and healings, FOR TODAY!" Correct? Then, yes, in that assumable
case, I am a "cessationist." Thanks to PC for plainly clearing
that part up for me.
Now, since PC is going to Totally Ignore this comment...
...I suppose the following is for CS1 and BlackPowderDuelist,
and Any Other interested parties who will Not totally ignore it, eh?
I apologize, this is too long...to be continued...
God's PERFECT Word Has Come
Let us now "back up a step" then about: "...we must examine
the Scriptures..."? Now, that is a given, but, How About:
(1) IF God's Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable Word is NOT
"That Which Is PERFECT, And Has Come," then pray tell, what is it?
And, IF that is True, Then I had Certainly Better NOT trust it, eh?
And, NO ONE Else "can trust it Either, AND NO ONE CAN BE SAVED"?
{In which case, "continualist/cessationist" debate, IS moot!}, Correct?
"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing By The Word Of God!"
FurtherMore!:
I Certainly had better not "believe God's PERFECT Word Is PURE," eh?
"The Words of The LORD Are PURE Words: as silver tried in a
furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou Shalt keep them,
O LORD, Thou Shalt PRESERVE THEM from this generation for ever."
(Psalms 12 : 6-7 KJB!)
+
What then happens IF I Do NOT believe God When HE Teaches:
"I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy
Name for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for Thou Hast
MAGNIFIED Thy Word ABOVE All Thy Name." (Psalms 138 : 2 KJB!)
Certainly, NOBODY believes God Would MAGNIFY something
IMPERFECT ABOVE All Of HIS HOLY NAME! Or would they?
{Glad I RAN from my "cradle religion" who claimed THEIR
church/tradition/magesterium was EQUAL to God's HOLY Word!
So, now "according to gifted men's experience, I should "take
THEIR word"...
...Instead of God's PERFECT Word? "That Which IS PERFECT"
for my "faith And practice"?
Further Biblical Confirmation - God's Contexts, And:
(2) Baptisms, According To "The PERFECT Word, That Has Come,"
Which we should be prayerfully And Carefully "studying" Today?:
Conclusions of Three (3) baptisms Summary
{Did not PC say: "Context Is Vital"?}:
In God's Context of HIS Prophetic program, under The Law,
to Israel, HE Requires water "baptism of repentance For The
Remission of sin," where, upon the obedience of the Jewish
recipient, CHRIST "Baptizes said recipient WITH The Holy Spirit,"
Pouring Out That Spirit for "powers, signs, and wonders," {healing
Everyone, raising from the dead, speaking in tongues, drinking
poison, handling snakes, etc.}
Q: Are these TWO "baptisms" for the Body of CHRIST, Today?
A: NO, and "Context AGAIN, is Vital"?:
In God's Context of HIS Mystery Program, Under God's PURE GRACE,
For The Body Of CHRIST, There Is Only ONE Baptism! It Is
----------========= "BY" The Holy Spirit,
Identifying, or Spiritually Immersing/Placing the "New-Born
believer" INTO The ONE Body {Spiritual Organism}, Seated In
Heaven!
The FULL "study" is available here: Today's ONE Bible Baptism
Again, If any Precious friend agrees "Context Is Vital" then,
Please study prayerfully And Carefully God's Contexts Of TWO
Different Programs, here: TWO Gospels, and here: Distinctions
My conclusion has been for many years that Mixing These Up
has been the Main Source of untold Disastrous Confusion in
The Severely Divided Body Of CHRIST, Very weak, and POWERless!
And, Please Be Very RICHLY Blessed!
------------------------------------------------
Further Biblical Confirmation:
(3) healings/Israel's National priesthood? In God's PERFECT Word?
See Sections #4, #9, And #10 here: 12 baptisms
Further Biblical Confirmation:
(4) healings in Paul's Early GRACE ministry, but why not later?
In God's PERFECT Word?
Further Biblical Confirmation!
(5) Does God Have a New Revelation About HIS
"Power" {#3 in link below...} for us Gentiles, who
HE Exhorts To: "walk By FAITH, NOT by sight {power signs}"
(2 Corinthians 5 : 7 KJB!)?
I believe so, According To The Scriptural "infirmities"
study here: A GRACE Word Before Great GRACE Departure!
Precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Blessed!!
Let us now "back up a step" then about: "...we must examine
the Scriptures..."? Now, that is a given, but, How About:
(1) IF God's Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable Word is NOT
"That Which Is PERFECT, And Has Come," then pray tell, what is it?
a) IF IT Has NOT Come, THEN "IT Does Not Qualify" for "ceasing
the above four gifts," Correct? Yeah, ridiculous, I know, since:
b) EVERYBODY Agrees IT Has Come! But, now IS IT Imperfect?
IF SO, THEN "IT Does Not Qualify" for "ceasing the above
four gifts," Correct?
Conclude whatever you will, Precious friend(s)...
And, IF that is True, Then I had Certainly Better NOT trust it, eh?
And, NO ONE Else "can trust it Either, AND NO ONE CAN BE SAVED"?
{In which case, "continualist/cessationist" debate, IS moot!}, Correct?
"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing By The Word Of God!"
FurtherMore!:
I Certainly had better not "believe God's PERFECT Word Is PURE," eh?
"The Words of The LORD Are PURE Words: as silver tried in a
furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou Shalt keep them,
O LORD, Thou Shalt PRESERVE THEM from this generation for ever."
(Psalms 12 : 6-7 KJB!)
+
What then happens IF I Do NOT believe God When HE Teaches:
"I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy
Name for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for Thou Hast
MAGNIFIED Thy Word ABOVE All Thy Name." (Psalms 138 : 2 KJB!)
Certainly, NOBODY believes God Would MAGNIFY something
IMPERFECT ABOVE All Of HIS HOLY NAME! Or would they?
{Glad I RAN from my "cradle religion" who claimed THEIR
church/tradition/magesterium was EQUAL to God's HOLY Word!
So, now "according to gifted men's experience, I should "take
THEIR word"...
...Instead of God's PERFECT Word? "That Which IS PERFECT"
for my "faith And practice"?
Further Biblical Confirmation - God's Contexts, And:
(2) Baptisms, According To "The PERFECT Word, That Has Come,"
Which we should be prayerfully And Carefully "studying" Today?:
Conclusions of Three (3) baptisms Summary
{Did not PC say: "Context Is Vital"?}:
In God's Context of HIS Prophetic program, under The Law,
to Israel, HE Requires water "baptism of repentance For The
Remission of sin," where, upon the obedience of the Jewish
recipient, CHRIST "Baptizes said recipient WITH The Holy Spirit,"
Pouring Out That Spirit for "powers, signs, and wonders," {healing
Everyone, raising from the dead, speaking in tongues, drinking
poison, handling snakes, etc.}
Q: Are these TWO "baptisms" for the Body of CHRIST, Today?
A: NO, and "Context AGAIN, is Vital"?:
In God's Context of HIS Mystery Program, Under God's PURE GRACE,
For The Body Of CHRIST, There Is Only ONE Baptism! It Is
----------========= "BY" The Holy Spirit,
Identifying, or Spiritually Immersing/Placing the "New-Born
believer" INTO The ONE Body {Spiritual Organism}, Seated In
Heaven!
The FULL "study" is available here: Today's ONE Bible Baptism
Again, If any Precious friend agrees "Context Is Vital" then,
Please study prayerfully And Carefully God's Contexts Of TWO
Different Programs, here: TWO Gospels, and here: Distinctions
My conclusion has been for many years that Mixing These Up
has been the Main Source of untold Disastrous Confusion in
The Severely Divided Body Of CHRIST, Very weak, and POWERless!
And, Please Be Very RICHLY Blessed!
------------------------------------------------
Further Biblical Confirmation:
(3) healings/Israel's National priesthood? In God's PERFECT Word?
See Sections #4, #9, And #10 here: 12 baptisms
Further Biblical Confirmation:
(4) healings in Paul's Early GRACE ministry, but why not later?
In God's PERFECT Word?
a) Yes, Paul had the "signs of an apostle," especially
raising the dead! (Acts 20 : 9-10 KJB!), And,
(b) So, WHY this, after Israel "fell," And Paul declared:
"Be it known therefore unto you, that The Salvation of
God Is Sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it."
(Acts 28 : 28 KJB!)
(c) WHY Does Paul NO LONGER "have The "gift of
The Holy Spirit, of healing" everyone?
(Philippians 2 : 25-28; 2 Timothy 4 : 20 KJB!)
(d) WHY Does "Paul himself have an infirmity,"
asking God THREE times for Healing? And,
hearing God's GRACIOUS/Powerful Answer?:
Further Biblical Confirmation!
(5) Does God Have a New Revelation About HIS
"Power" {#3 in link below...} for us Gentiles, who
HE Exhorts To: "walk By FAITH, NOT by sight {power signs}"
(2 Corinthians 5 : 7 KJB!)?
I believe so, According To The Scriptural "infirmities"
study here: A GRACE Word Before Great GRACE Departure!
Precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Blessed!!
Guess You think Jesus lied when HE said YOu shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you to be MY witnesses. YOU are just a hateful person as always and a troll.
where? Please you me where it says they have ceased? because it doesn't say that in those verses I can paste them again for you are reading some other kind of new testament? Because my KJV doesn't say that. Are you using a JW Bible?
yeah im just saying miraculous works don’t prove anything our faith built by accepting his teachings does
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
Matthew 7:22-27 KJV
one could do a miracle in Jesus name , and not be operating and speaking of God . What defines Gods children in this world is their actions and behavior towards others . We don’t need to have the gospel proven to us by a miracle we need to let the gospel into our belief meaning the things he taught because the things he taught are what this is made of
“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:19-20
Satans work in the world is to get us away from believing the gospel.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
2 Corinthians 4:3-6 KJV
Satan works to blind us even as believers by distorting it and making the gospel something else making it not what Jesus preached a deception claiming to be truth that may even deceive the elect
“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
Mark 13:22 KJV
miracles will be one of the deceptions within the church in the world is my only point there , a miracle doesn’t mean it’s a man of God. There are spiritual powers we don’t understand in this world empowered by Satan who holds authority for a time and has created an alternate gospel that’s based on these kinds of doctrines rather than the gospel
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:2-4
Within the worldly church there would be the one false shepherds leading people astray from the true gospel creating fable and confusion about the truth . Of Satan can’t get us to say I don’t believe , he is going to distort the truth we accept and cause us to reject the true gospel
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2
Importantly these prophecies were written almost 2000 years ago and we’ve long been corrupted by these false doctrines there’s truth and the true church yet it’s scattered across the world
there’s a world of dark deception and a lot of it calls itself Christianity but it’s distorted from the truth .
and then There’s the light of the world. The word of truth that gives us life Which Jesus preached and sent to all
People who would believe even though they may not see a miracle , but they believe by faith the message of Gods begotten who died and rose
My belief and I could be wrong who knows , just my own thought is that a miracle isn’t going to make an unbeliever , believe , but a believer may see a miracle later on by faith
I think the early church it was imperative to establish the gospel in the world when Christ left for heaven , there were so Many eye witnesses to these things that it’s lasted 2000 years when many have tried to eliminate and discredit it
faith I think has to come from the word of God the gospel hearing it and believing
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17
I will when I get time read your link there I’m sure there are some differences my only point was that miracles aren’t where the proof lies , but in believers loving others in his ways and name because they believe what they haven’t seen
it doesn’t say he is only going to pull fire from heaven it says many false prophets and Christs will do any powerful
And deceiving signs , I’m not sure why opening a blind mans eyes couldn’t possibly be one
“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
Mark 13:22
is say also the purpose of making the statement. Pull fire from heaven is definitely Satans imitation of Gods power also that’s what Elijah the prophet did during his ministry.
I’m not sure where the blind man part comes in but my point is that a miracle , a sign or wonder doesn’t prove anything. Regardless of what type of wonders signs or miracles Satan does to deceive the world
people waiting for the proof of a miracle worker might be deceived along with the others as they see his miracles , including even fire from the sky
“And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”
Revelation 13:13-15
I’m not sure how limited his power is to be could be your right maybe he couldn’t open the blind mans eyes I guess that’s more of an opinion that can differ because there’s no scripture
learn this ?
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
Matthew 7:15-
yes thier fruits indeed I agree I don’t think a fruit is a miracle working but the fruits of the gospel the fruits of righteousness is how we know men kind of my point we know someone’s of God because of how they act and treat others not because they worked a wonderful sign
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
Galatians 5:22-26 KJV
By their fruits not thier moraculois works done in his name
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Matthew 7:22-23 KJV
even workers of iniquity had done many wonderful works in his name , driven out devils in his name , prophesied in his name yet , he never knew them that worked iniquity .
Satan has power on earth I don’t pretend to know his limits so you could be right but I agree with you men are known by the fruit the gospel produces in our life
Sure I have, I’ve seen a lot of things and I’m in no way saying the gifts have ceased not at all . I’m saying the church is lacking faith to see those things being that we are so divided and scattered in our belief of the gospel
the gifts of God are irrevocable and he gives gifts every time someone receives the holy spirit even today Godnis empowering a believer with gifts given for the edification of the church.
I believe we’re so divided that when someone has a gift and begins to excercise the gift others seem to have a certain dostain or want to reject the person . To me it’s as simple as the many differing ideas we all have of doctrine it’s hard to agree on anything even though it’s all written down for us to learn and grow in together
but I don’t know it seems we’re lacking faith because we’re lacking true doctrine to me but I’m no one special or appointed just another believer discussing things in a forum that matter to me
I believe the gifts are being left in used because we lack the gospel of the kingdom because we rarely hear it often it becomes an argument about the cross eliminating the word that preceded it and offered salvation
it seems like faith and the gospel go hand in hand and when we lack faith miracle power isn’t prevalent
Hour not a pentecostalist/charismatic?-)I have never even uttered anything prophetic on these boards and you are talking about my demonic delusions?
That is wild
Sigh, it is hard to breath coming in the room behind you for all the straw dust you stir up into the air....all is see here is your ego and not humbly interpreting the word or reading all of it to understand the nature of your Creator....i mean honestly, your going to try and imply love is not part of the whole plan? That is an extremely foolish example to try and theorize into a reality in a lame attempt to discredit one who teaches the word’s actual meaning vs your emotional trip’n release for mankind, like really? No one in their tight mind would ever imply God is not love, Perfect love actually.....and you chase after doctrines of demons to build up your ego. You need to repent as you are heading to hell’s flames twisting God’s words in such ways.
You are standing in the gaps of scripture and God’s history to build and emotional tower built on emotional lies and Johnny Mac is mislead on his understanding of scripture? Hahaha....oh please do continue with your fallacies of emotionalism’s seducing lies as they pile up to the heaven’s your sins against the word and the Holy Spirit, we certainly are in the end times of men building their own ideals to serve themselves, shame on you!
Tell me, why do you need to speak in babble that no one can understand? Or heal that really isn’t healing? Or tell the future like a witch when God say’s if your foretelling does not come about? You are to be stoned to death. Or ask for God to send his holy spirit, when he is already in every child of his upon conversion? Like why fo need to do these things?
Tell me, why do you need to speak in babble that no one can understand? Or heal that really isn’t healing? Or tell the future like a witch when God say’s if your foretelling does not come about? You are to be stoned to death. Or ask for God to send his holy spirit, when he is already in every child of his upon conversion? Like why fo need to do these things?