Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians
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Post-trib didn't get debunked. I just showed you what the Bible says about it. I agree the Bible should be understood it's entirety. If something doesn't mesh together with scripture then it can only be concluded we aren't understanding something completely.
What you showed me does not undo what Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 says. There is no reference to a pre-trib gathering of the elect of any sort. There is a gathering at the 2nd coming of Christ though and that's after the great tribulation.
I'm only showing you what the Bible says. You decide what you want to believe.
What you showed me does not undo what Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 says. There is no reference to a pre-trib gathering of the elect of any sort. There is a gathering at the 2nd coming of Christ though and that's after the great tribulation.
I'm only showing you what the Bible says. You decide what you want to believe.
From the evidence presented in scripture it is to be parsed the timing and sequence of events. Everything from the time of birth pains, to the rebellion of the church, to the creation of the third temple, to the rise of the anti-Christ, to the 7 year great tribulation, to Armageddon, to the return of Christ, rapture, great white throne judgement. It doesn't give exact dates, we can only estimate based on scripture.
We need to study these events to see in which order the unfold. I will say one more time, the only time people are gathered from the earth, or the four winds, or the heavens, or resurrected is when Jesus returns. That's the rapture.
I personally don't see it as a contentious thing. If you believe in Christ as your savior then you will be saved just as the Bible promises. It is not dependant on our ability to understand the end times accurately. But we should make every honest effort.
We need to study these events to see in which order the unfold. I will say one more time, the only time people are gathered from the earth, or the four winds, or the heavens, or resurrected is when Jesus returns. That's the rapture.
I personally don't see it as a contentious thing. If you believe in Christ as your savior then you will be saved just as the Bible promises. It is not dependant on our ability to understand the end times accurately. But we should make every honest effort.
Talk about not meshing, there is no such thing as the DEAD in Christ after the cross.
(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
For my posts (when speaking of what I did in that post ^ ), I normally place the "explanation" in brackets following the phrase "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [like this (if it's okay with you):-->"ALL those "saved" in this present age [singular], Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence); ALL those who have trusted in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation, per 1Cor15:1-4,17, 1Jn5:9-12, etc]
As I've posted in the past... Rom14:5, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
As I said at the top, "salvation" is connected with "Christ, and His finished work" (it is "not of [our own] works, lest any man should boast")
I've pointed out in past posts, the following passage (in part, here):
1Th5:10[6] -
"10 Who died for us, THAT
whether we may WATCH [same word as in v.6 - G1127 - grēgorōmen / grégoreó]
or whether we may SLEEP [ * same word as in v.6 - G2518 - katheudōmen / katheudó]
we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - UNION-with/IDENTIFICATION-with] Him"
[ * NOT the same "sleep [G2837]" word that was used in 1Th4:13,14,15 having the meaning "sleep IN DEATH"... NOT THAT word; but the SAME WORD as was used in verse 6-->"So then we should not sleep [G2518] as the others, but we should watch [G1127] and we should be sober." Now read again Verse 10 "...that whether we might WATCH *or* whether we might SLEEP, we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] Him" (a distinct "WITH" word from that of the "with [G3326]" word used in Matt25:10, which pertains to the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" who will go "[/went] in with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka the earthly MK age (IOW, He is NOT coming to MARRY "10 [or even 5] virginS [PLURAL]"... this context is the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the earthly MK], not "the MARRIAGE" itself [pertaining to the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"])]
I hope that clearly answers that aspect of your questions.
Thus ^ , it doesn't matter what a person believes with regard to "rapture timing" (re: "salvation")... however, I have noticed a connection (fairly often) between a persons view on THAT subject, to that of what their understanding is on "salvation truths" (where, many times I've noticed, that if they are "off" on the one, they are many times also "off" on what "salvation" is (meaning, by "off," that they add something TO "[faith in] Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation"... like "faith PLUS ____" [fill in the blank with any number of things]);
...so that ^ would be something to consider, on that particular question/subject.
As I've posted in the past... Rom14:5, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
As I said at the top, "salvation" is connected with "Christ, and His finished work" (it is "not of [our own] works, lest any man should boast")
I've pointed out in past posts, the following passage (in part, here):
1Th5:10[6] -
"10 Who died for us, THAT
whether we may WATCH [same word as in v.6 - G1127 - grēgorōmen / grégoreó]
or whether we may SLEEP [ * same word as in v.6 - G2518 - katheudōmen / katheudó]
we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - UNION-with/IDENTIFICATION-with] Him"
[ * NOT the same "sleep [G2837]" word that was used in 1Th4:13,14,15 having the meaning "sleep IN DEATH"... NOT THAT word; but the SAME WORD as was used in verse 6-->"So then we should not sleep [G2518] as the others, but we should watch [G1127] and we should be sober." Now read again Verse 10 "...that whether we might WATCH *or* whether we might SLEEP, we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] Him" (a distinct "WITH" word from that of the "with [G3326]" word used in Matt25:10, which pertains to the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" who will go "[/went] in with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka the earthly MK age (IOW, He is NOT coming to MARRY "10 [or even 5] virginS [PLURAL]"... this context is the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the earthly MK], not "the MARRIAGE" itself [pertaining to the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"])]
I hope that clearly answers that aspect of your questions.
Thus ^ , it doesn't matter what a person believes with regard to "rapture timing" (re: "salvation")... however, I have noticed a connection (fairly often) between a persons view on THAT subject, to that of what their understanding is on "salvation truths" (where, many times I've noticed, that if they are "off" on the one, they are many times also "off" on what "salvation" is (meaning, by "off," that they add something TO "[faith in] Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation"... like "faith PLUS ____" [fill in the blank with any number of things]);
...so that ^ would be something to consider, on that particular question/subject.
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Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
I thought Babylon wasn't fallen until Revelation 18? And where does it say that the 144,000 were raptured--not killed?
And this is supposed to be a "slam dunk" supporting pre-trib Rapture? To say that Revelation 14 is a slam dunk about Pre-trib rapture is like saying Revelation 14 is a slam dunk that the Bible has errors. Revelation 14 clearly says that Babylon is fallen, yet Revelation 17 clearly says that it is not yet.
I thought Babylon wasn't fallen until Revelation 18? And where does it say that the 144,000 were raptured--not killed?
And this is supposed to be a "slam dunk" supporting pre-trib Rapture? To say that Revelation 14 is a slam dunk about Pre-trib rapture is like saying Revelation 14 is a slam dunk that the Bible has errors. Revelation 14 clearly says that Babylon is fallen, yet Revelation 17 clearly says that it is not yet.
To get the context of the convo, go back a few posts (now a few pages ago) and read Posts #350 and #360 [page 18], about what the "24 elders" are saying of themselves in Revelation 5:9 ('hast redeemed US [G2248 - hemas] to God out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation' - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/5/9/ss1/s_1172009 ; and per the manuscript evidence being overwhelming to that point, as I mentioned in those posts--please see those two posts--Of the 24 manuscripts total [of the Greek, having Revelation 5], 23 of them have "US," and only ONE manuscript leaves it blank/untranslated [the "Codex Alexandrinus"] )
I'm not sure what "Abs" point is, that he is endeavoring to make re: Rev14...
IMO, it is unrelated to what I'm pointing out about the wording in Rev5:9
I'm not sure what "Abs" point is, that he is endeavoring to make re: Rev14...
IMO, it is unrelated to what I'm pointing out about the wording in Rev5:9
P.S. again, "resurrection" has to do with the BODY (except in those few/several passages I've listed that speak of what is "LIKENED UNTO" a resurrection, pertaining to ISRAEL "coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered"--Dan12:1-4,10; Isaiah 26:14-21; Rom11:15[25]; Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Hosea 5:14-6:3; etc etc...)
"resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]"... this pertains to ones BODY.
This isn't to say that I do not believe that once a believer DIES that they are not "present with the Lord" (THEY ARE--this is what the CONTEXT of 2Cor5:1-8 covers, in addition to speaking of our Rapture point-in-time [cf 1Cor15:51-54 in parts]), it's just that their "resurrected [and glorified] BODY" is not up there yet, but awaits "our Rapture [SNATCH]" event. This is what the words "unclothed" and "clothed UPON" speak to in that 2Cor5:2-4 CONTEXT.
"resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]"... this pertains to ones BODY.
This isn't to say that I do not believe that once a believer DIES that they are not "present with the Lord" (THEY ARE--this is what the CONTEXT of 2Cor5:1-8 covers, in addition to speaking of our Rapture point-in-time [cf 1Cor15:51-54 in parts]), it's just that their "resurrected [and glorified] BODY" is not up there yet, but awaits "our Rapture [SNATCH]" event.
This is what the words "unclothed" and "clothed UPON" speak to in that 2Cor5:2-4 CONTEXT.
Nah... not true... "the dead IN Christ SHALL RISE [*FUTURE TENSE*] first..."
...and Paul said that long after the Cross point in time.
[are you among those who disregard Paul's words as mere "fluff" and not really from the Lord?? (except in the few places where P says as much?)]
...and Paul said that long after the Cross point in time.
[are you among those who disregard Paul's words as mere "fluff" and not really from the Lord?? (except in the few places where P says as much?)]
It would still remain to be seen, however, whether that would have any consequence on the rapture's timing. After all, if 12 of the 24 elders were apostles, then they would not be raptured--they would be dead. Unless we go idealist, and to be raptured IS to be dead??
Nah... not true... "the dead IN Christ SHALL RISE [*FUTURE TENSE*] first..."
...and Paul said that long after the Cross point in time.
[are you among those who disregard Paul's words as mere "fluff" and not really from the Lord?? (except in the few places where P says as much?)]
...and Paul said that long after the Cross point in time.
[are you among those who disregard Paul's words as mere "fluff" and not really from the Lord?? (except in the few places where P says as much?)]
Did you happen to grab the wrong post of mine, to quote? as your comment doesn't align with the post you're quoting of mine, but another of a different context/line-of-convo). = )
Anyway, I had posted about the "manuscript evidence" in another post... but I explained it in condensed form in my post you're referring to but didn't quote/grab-to-quote ).
I'll post it again in the next post... please be looking for it (I'm going to go find it to post... but there might be several posts pop up in the meantime, by other posters... while I go find it. BRB, in a few mins... WAIT FOR IT )
[I'm not sure I understand your point in the underlined ^ (??)]
As to this part, think about what it is they are saying... [in Rev5:9]... "hast redeemed US to God out of [ek] EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"
Anyway, I had posted about the "manuscript evidence" in another post... but I explained it in condensed form in my post you're referring to but didn't quote/grab-to-quote
).I'll post it again in the next post... please be looking for it (I'm going to go find it to post... but there might be several posts pop up in the meantime, by other posters... while I go find it. BRB, in a few mins... WAIT FOR IT
)[I'm not sure I understand your point in the underlined ^ (??)]
As to this part, think about what it is they are saying... [in Rev5:9]... "hast redeemed US to God out of [ek] EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"