Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians
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You "Falsely" claim there is no future mass resurrection?
God's words below Cleary teaches a future mass resurrection of all!
"ALL That Are In The Graves Shall Hear His Voice And Come Forth"[/B]
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
God's words below Cleary teaches a future mass resurrection of all!
"ALL That Are In The Graves Shall Hear His Voice And Come Forth"[/B]
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Hard to believe "Denial Of A Future Mass Resurrection"?
I agree with you, there will be a future event of a resurrection and catching up?
But it will be the last day when all that are in the graves shall hear the Lords voice and come forth, to the final judgement.
"ALL That Are In The Graves Shall Hear His Voice And Come Forth"
"The Resurrection And Final Judgement"
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Daniel 12:1-2KJV
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
I agree with you, there will be a future event of a resurrection and catching up?
But it will be the last day when all that are in the graves shall hear the Lords voice and come forth, to the final judgement.
"ALL That Are In The Graves Shall Hear His Voice And Come Forth"
"The Resurrection And Final Judgement"
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Daniel 12:1-2KJV
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
How do you explain the "24 elders" saying (from their position up in Heaven, BEFORE the first Seal is opened), "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hemas] out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"
...[note also "sealed unto the day of redemption" and "the redemption of the purchased-possession" speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in Eph]...
...whereas Rev14:6 says "[to preach] TO/UNTO [/upon - epi] every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"--IOW, these particular people [in 14:6], along with, or the same as, "those dwelling [G2521] on the earth," are not said to be "out of [ek]" every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" like was said of the "24 elders" (i.e. 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY,' of which similar thing is said... for example, the "ek" in Acts 15:14, etc)...?
...[note also "sealed unto the day of redemption" and "the redemption of the purchased-possession" speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in Eph]...
...whereas Rev14:6 says "[to preach] TO/UNTO [/upon - epi] every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"--IOW, these particular people [in 14:6], along with, or the same as, "those dwelling [G2521] on the earth," are not said to be "out of [ek]" every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" like was said of the "24 elders" (i.e. 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY,' of which similar thing is said... for example, the "ek" in Acts 15:14, etc)...?
Interesting. I admit, I lack understanding of what you just said; probably because I'm jumping in the middle of the conversation.
Are you saying that Revelation 14 says the 24 elders are redeemed, and that angels and/or heavenly beings cannot be redeemed, therefore pre-trib has to be true because only humans can be redeemed?
Because I see nothing in Revelation 14 which says the elders either are or are not redeemed. Only the 144,000. Not sure it matters, anyway, since the 144,000 definitely can only be humans. And they're in Heaven, too, so the argument would still remain the same.
Are you saying that Revelation 14 says the 24 elders are redeemed, and that angels and/or heavenly beings cannot be redeemed, therefore pre-trib has to be true because only humans can be redeemed?
Because I see nothing in Revelation 14 which says the elders either are or are not redeemed. Only the 144,000. Not sure it matters, anyway, since the 144,000 definitely can only be humans. And they're in Heaven, too, so the argument would still remain the same.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
In answer to your question "Removal from or preservation through," in the scripture above Jesus says: "I will keep you out of the hour of trial," not preserve you through it or during it, but I will keep you out of the hour of trial. The original Greek is word 'ek' is defined as 'out of.' And many translations have 'out from.'
As I made know to you in previous posts, the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because of our faith in Him, is the not the same as God's coming wrath which is going to be poured out upon the whole earth. Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. The church cannot be here because God's coming wrath is meant for those who have continued to reject Christ and continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature. Why do you people continue to put the church through the same punishment as the wicked, when the scriptures have demonstrated that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
The ongoing errors is not understanding that God's wrath has already been satisfied by Christ on behalf of every believer. And the other error is not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Nor do they have understanding of whose God's wrath is for and why it is coming.
Jesus warning which says, "if anyone tells you, He's (the Messiah) is out in the desert, don't go out to look. And if anyone tells you that He is in an inner room, don't believe it." This warning is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and is not speaking about the gathering of the church. During the tribulation there will be many more false prophets and people stating that He's out in the desert or in a secret room. But then He tells the reader how they will know the false Messiah's from the real one, with the real one arriving on the clouds of heaven.
Not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is another big error by expositors. Their interpretations continually have the church going through the wrath of God. We know that there will be a group of saints who come out of the great tribulation of whom the beast will make war and conquer, so if you are interpreting them as the church, how are they being preserved through the tribulation when it states that most of them are beheaded? That's not preservation! Not to mention that the last time the church is mentioned is at the end of chapter 3 and is never mention during the narrative of God's wrath.
The above is completely misquoted! The Thessalonians wrote Paul because there were people there teaching that the day of the Lord had already come, which is another description for the time of God's wrath. They were concerned because Paul had taught them that the dead in Christ would rise first and then the living believers would be changed and caught up with them, which would be followed by the period of God's wrath. So since people were teaching that the day of the Lord had come, they were concerned as to why they hadn't been caught up as Paul taught them and they were afraid that they were now in the time of God's wrath.
In answer to your question "Removal from or preservation through," in the scripture above Jesus says: "I will keep you out of the hour of trial," not preserve you through it or during it, but I will keep you out of the hour of trial. The original Greek is word 'ek' is defined as 'out of.' And many translations have 'out from.'
As I made know to you in previous posts, the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because of our faith in Him, is the not the same as God's coming wrath which is going to be poured out upon the whole earth. Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. The church cannot be here because God's coming wrath is meant for those who have continued to reject Christ and continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature. Why do you people continue to put the church through the same punishment as the wicked, when the scriptures have demonstrated that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
The ongoing errors is not understanding that God's wrath has already been satisfied by Christ on behalf of every believer. And the other error is not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Nor do they have understanding of whose God's wrath is for and why it is coming.
Jesus warning which says, "if anyone tells you, He's (the Messiah) is out in the desert, don't go out to look. And if anyone tells you that He is in an inner room, don't believe it." This warning is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and is not speaking about the gathering of the church. During the tribulation there will be many more false prophets and people stating that He's out in the desert or in a secret room. But then He tells the reader how they will know the false Messiah's from the real one, with the real one arriving on the clouds of heaven.
Not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is another big error by expositors. Their interpretations continually have the church going through the wrath of God. We know that there will be a group of saints who come out of the great tribulation of whom the beast will make war and conquer, so if you are interpreting them as the church, how are they being preserved through the tribulation when it states that most of them are beheaded? That's not preservation! Not to mention that the last time the church is mentioned is at the end of chapter 3 and is never mention during the narrative of God's wrath.
The above is completely misquoted! The Thessalonians wrote Paul because there were people there teaching that the day of the Lord had already come, which is another description for the time of God's wrath. They were concerned because Paul had taught them that the dead in Christ would rise first and then the living believers would be changed and caught up with them, which would be followed by the period of God's wrath. So since people were teaching that the day of the Lord had come, they were concerned as to why they hadn't been caught up as Paul taught them and they were afraid that they were now in the time of God's wrath.
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Truth.. facts. I read some of the verses and they only give one side of that verse not both or all. Like "falling away/apostasy". So many leave out the word can also mean "departure". Then you don't hear how that word "departure" was once the first word used and written.
So once you state a fact that is not written.. nothing to talk about. What we don't read hear much is "what I personally believe is and why" <----see they know.. there is no verse saying PRETRIB happens before the tribulation. They know there is no verse saying Caught up will happen after the great tribulation.
So 18 pages in and a few lines of text is all that needs be said. Yet so much of the OT is left out. The truth missing is if you doubt you have nothing worry about. He will not go against your will. Me.. He went to make me a home and will come get me so WHERE He is I will be. Ok.. speaks for its self. Then some thought Christ came left with out them. So Paul. well the holy Spirit said.. no you missed nothing. And Paul for some reason said "WE" not they but "we which remain". So.. no time is given.
No one has a clue whats happening to them tomorrow nor 5min from now. Yet you have faith in a day that you might never see? For me it seems I should be living for Him watching for Him NOW.
The year is 2020. LOL so since He left.. every person that has fasted prayed for months years.. He still has not told ANYONE!
So your mine personal belief what a verse really says.. is not His word. Caught up will happen. And you and me have no say what so ever. I look waiting now. All I have
So once you state a fact that is not written.. nothing to talk about. What we don't read hear much is "what I personally believe is and why" <----see they know.. there is no verse saying PRETRIB happens before the tribulation. They know there is no verse saying Caught up will happen after the great tribulation.
So 18 pages in and a few lines of text is all that needs be said. Yet so much of the OT is left out. The truth missing is if you doubt you have nothing worry about. He will not go against your will. Me.. He went to make me a home and will come get me so WHERE He is I will be. Ok.. speaks for its self. Then some thought Christ came left with out them. So Paul. well the holy Spirit said.. no you missed nothing. And Paul for some reason said "WE" not they but "we which remain". So.. no time is given.
No one has a clue whats happening to them tomorrow nor 5min from now. Yet you have faith in a day that you might never see? For me it seems I should be living for Him watching for Him NOW.
The year is 2020. LOL so since He left.. every person that has fasted prayed for months years.. He still has not told ANYONE!
So your mine personal belief what a verse really says.. is not His word. Caught up will happen. And you and me have no say what so ever. I look waiting now. All I have
Tell me what you see differently in what I posted here (in this quote of my previous post):
Here's the Greek (for Rev5:9) showing at BlueLetterBible - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/5/9/ss1/s_1172009 showing them saying "us [G2248 - hemas]"... "hast redeemed US...".
In past posts, I provided the link to the following info on that verse (boiled down here):
--of the 24 [total] manuscripts (of the Greek) of Revelation chpt 5, 23 of them have it as "US [G2248 - hemas]" and only ONE manuscript leaves it blank [/untranslated]. (That ONE manuscript [of 24 total manuscripts (Rev5)] that leaves it blank/untranslated is the "Codex Alexandrinus".)
Either point out why you believe I am wrong, here, or...
explain why these "24 elders" are saying "hast redeemed US out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (comp 1:5-6 where "US" is mentioned 3x, in a similar fashion),
and why they are wearing "stephanos/crowns" (recall, Paul said he would be awarded one "IN THAT DAY" [not the day of his DEATH
] and not to him only! Tell me, where did they GET THOSE?!),
and why they are sitting on "24 THRONES" (what is the PURPOSE of their sitting on "THRONES"?!),
and why "24" ? (could it be parallel to that which we find in the "24 courses" of priests, and the "24 courses of singers", here):
[quoting Wm Kelly on 1Chron25]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see esp vv.1,6-7,31]
[note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]
and I've posted before about the wording in Hebrews 9:8-9a (and how it relates to this), "8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" in v.4] yet having A STANDING [ *stasis/stasin], 9 which is a PARABLE for the present time [...]"
[ * "stasis/stasin" word RELATED TO the word in 2Th2:3, under discussion earlier in this thread (apo stasis)]
Here's the Greek (for Rev5:9) showing at BlueLetterBible - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/5/9/ss1/s_1172009 showing them saying "us [G2248 - hemas]"... "hast redeemed US...".
In past posts, I provided the link to the following info on that verse (boiled down here):
--of the 24 [total] manuscripts (of the Greek) of Revelation chpt 5, 23 of them have it as "US [G2248 - hemas]" and only ONE manuscript leaves it blank [/untranslated]. (That ONE manuscript [of 24 total manuscripts (Rev5)] that leaves it blank/untranslated is the "Codex Alexandrinus".)
Either point out why you believe I am wrong, here, or...
explain why these "24 elders" are saying "hast redeemed US out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (comp 1:5-6 where "US" is mentioned 3x, in a similar fashion),
and why they are wearing "stephanos/crowns" (recall, Paul said he would be awarded one "IN THAT DAY" [not the day of his DEATH
] and not to him only! Tell me, where did they GET THOSE?!),and why they are sitting on "24 THRONES" (what is the PURPOSE of their sitting on "THRONES"?!),
and why "24" ? (could it be parallel to that which we find in the "24 courses" of priests, and the "24 courses of singers", here):
[quoting Wm Kelly on 1Chron25]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see esp vv.1,6-7,31]
[note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]
and I've posted before about the wording in Hebrews 9:8-9a (and how it relates to this), "8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" in v.4] yet having A STANDING [ *stasis/stasin], 9 which is a PARABLE for the present time [...]"
[ * "stasis/stasin" word RELATED TO the word in 2Th2:3, under discussion earlier in this thread (apo stasis)]
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