Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians
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FOUND IT:
[re-posting an old post... note what I put AFTER this, at the bottom, coz it needs to be CLARIFIED at the point where he slightly "mis-speaks" at one point in the vid--but which I've already CLARIFIED in a recent post]
Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['hast redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out (see vid below)], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:
[see @ this vid (approx 9-min vid total):
--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]
[end quoting that post]
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The CLARIFICATION is: (where he slightly MIS-speaks) I believe he meant to say... "of the 24 manuscripts [total], 23 of the manuscripts say "US" and only 1 manuscript leaves it blank/untranslated [the 'Codex Alexandrinus'], re: verse 9" (<--the bold is where I believe he mis-spoke and said the one manuscript says "them" instead of "leaves it blank [/untranslated]" as I believe he intended to say here... he just lost his train of thought for a second, is all... so mis-spoke...)
[re-posting an old post... note what I put AFTER this, at the bottom, coz it needs to be CLARIFIED at the point where he slightly "mis-speaks" at one point in the vid--but which I've already CLARIFIED in a recent post]
Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['hast redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out (see vid below)], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:
[see @ this vid (approx 9-min vid total):
--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]
[end quoting that post]
____________
The CLARIFICATION is: (where he slightly MIS-speaks) I believe he meant to say... "of the 24 manuscripts [total], 23 of the manuscripts say "US" and only 1 manuscript leaves it blank/untranslated [the 'Codex Alexandrinus'], re: verse 9" (<--the bold is where I believe he mis-spoke and said the one manuscript says "them" instead of "leaves it blank [/untranslated]" as I believe he intended to say here... he just lost his train of thought for a second, is all... so mis-spoke...)
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lol, we've been posting on this site for a while, KJV, so you know how words can fail to properly convey meaning. So let me just say that when I said "at least the 24 elders" I wasn't saying "only" the 24 elders are in heaven. I meant, I believe "only" the firstfruits of a greater resurrection harvest of saints were resurrected to life and are in heaven...but the specific number of that firstfruit harvest of OT saints is unknown to any of us.
[You may have understood my meaning perfectly but I just wanted to clarify to make sure]
I see what you're saying with regard to wording. But in the same vein, if we rely on the exact wording, it equally doesn't tell us that ALL of the OT saints rose either. "Many" is definitely more than "some"...but "many" still isn't all.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you believe all OT saints resurrected to life, right? If so how do you reconcile that with the following passages below with regard to the resurrection?
Acts 2:25-36 (Peter speaking about David)
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
So I read this as Peter saying that not even King David has ascended to heaven yet...and this is after the Messiah resurrected with many saints into heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:16- (Paul regarding the order of being made alive)
16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
I read this passage as saying that there are those, who belong to the Messiah, who still haven't been made alive yet because their lot is only at His coming...I would place King David in this lot because of what Peter said about him at Pentecost, and Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit at this point.
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So other can follow what you and I are particularly talking about in this thread I'm going to quickly summarize my position:
1. I believe that when a person dies they are dead (body returns to dust and breath of life returns to Almighty's nostrils). Others have labeled this a form of "soul sleep", either way, I believe the person ceases to be and is only a memory in the mind of Almighty.
2. I believe that unless a believer is resurrected bodily they are not currently "alive" in heaven right now after their death (because of my first point), even after the Cross, until the Messiah harvests/resurrects them.
3. I believe the very next event for one who dies is their judgment when they are resurrected back to life in one of the harvests: firstfruits (already happened), wheat (a future gathering of believers at His 2nd coming) or grape (future judgment of non-believers after 1000 years)
[You may have understood my meaning perfectly but I just wanted to clarify to make sure]
I see what you're saying with regard to wording. But in the same vein, if we rely on the exact wording, it equally doesn't tell us that ALL of the OT saints rose either. "Many" is definitely more than "some"...but "many" still isn't all.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you believe all OT saints resurrected to life, right? If so how do you reconcile that with the following passages below with regard to the resurrection?
Acts 2:25-36 (Peter speaking about David)
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
So I read this as Peter saying that not even King David has ascended to heaven yet...and this is after the Messiah resurrected with many saints into heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:16- (Paul regarding the order of being made alive)
16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
I read this passage as saying that there are those, who belong to the Messiah, who still haven't been made alive yet because their lot is only at His coming...I would place King David in this lot because of what Peter said about him at Pentecost, and Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit at this point.
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So other can follow what you and I are particularly talking about in this thread I'm going to quickly summarize my position:
1. I believe that when a person dies they are dead (body returns to dust and breath of life returns to Almighty's nostrils). Others have labeled this a form of "soul sleep", either way, I believe the person ceases to be and is only a memory in the mind of Almighty.
2. I believe that unless a believer is resurrected bodily they are not currently "alive" in heaven right now after their death (because of my first point), even after the Cross, until the Messiah harvests/resurrects them.
3. I believe the very next event for one who dies is their judgment when they are resurrected back to life in one of the harvests: firstfruits (already happened), wheat (a future gathering of believers at His 2nd coming) or grape (future judgment of non-believers after 1000 years)
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No, that isn't what it should have said.
So you're saying Christ's second return is split into two phases? First part rapture and the second part the second coming? Going to need verses for that if you can find any.
"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40
How do you reconcile the above verse if, under your pre-trib doctrine, the saints are resurrected at the rapture?
So you're saying Christ's second return is split into two phases? First part rapture and the second part the second coming? Going to need verses for that if you can find any.
"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40
How do you reconcile the above verse if, under your pre-trib doctrine, the saints are resurrected at the rapture?
The saints in the 5th seal aren't raised yet, told to wait a little longer. To me the only logical conclusion is that they will be raised at the 2nd coming of Christ which occurs at the same time as the rapture. That's the post-trib beliefe and what I think is sound. There aren't two phases to Christ coming back, that was my point.
No. That is not the "pre-trib" viewpoint. ^
Where it says "the dead in christ SHALL RISE first" this speaks to their "resurrection" ['resurrection' means 'to stand again [on the earth]' and speaks to their BODIES]. That happens "first".
"THEN [epeita ('only then')] we which are ALIVE and remain unto... [that's we who are still-living, at the time]...
... shall be CAUGHT UP/AWAY [/SNATCHED/harpazo'd/raptured] together [that is, "caught up' AT THE SAME TIME] with them in the clouds..." [THIS ALONE is the "RAPTURE"-action, see]
Where it says "the dead in christ SHALL RISE first" this speaks to their "resurrection" ['resurrection' means 'to stand again [on the earth]' and speaks to their BODIES]. That happens "first".
"THEN [epeita ('only then')] we which are ALIVE and remain unto... [that's we who are still-living, at the time]...
... shall be CAUGHT UP/AWAY [/SNATCHED/harpazo'd/raptured] together [that is, "caught up' AT THE SAME TIME] with them in the clouds..." [THIS ALONE is the "RAPTURE"-action, see]
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I
1 Thessalonians 4:17 goes out of his way to expressly state that the living are raptured after the dead. For the dead to be resurrected--to physically walk on the earth again--prior to the living being snatched, does not seem to line up with this in-the-twinkling-of-an-eye Left Behind event of pre-trib. Or of the "two will be in a field, one will be taken away" of the Olivet Discourse.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 goes out of his way to expressly state that the living are raptured after the dead. For the dead to be resurrected--to physically walk on the earth again--prior to the living being snatched, does not seem to line up with this in-the-twinkling-of-an-eye Left Behind event of pre-trib. Or of the "two will be in a field, one will be taken away" of the Olivet Discourse.
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We are discussing future events and for you or me or anyone to believe we know exactly when and how the events will come to be is ridiculous. You are convinced you are correct as we all do.
We disagree. We all study and pray and yet we still disagree.
Now to attack one and make very damning remarks about that person is just stupid.
That is pride. Scriptures warns us about pride.
It is sad that we can not have a friendly discussion and leave as friends and not enemies.
We disagree. We all study and pray and yet we still disagree.
Now to attack one and make very damning remarks about that person is just stupid.
That is pride. Scriptures warns us about pride.
It is sad that we can not have a friendly discussion and leave as friends and not enemies.
No. It does not.
The word "together" attaches to the VERB-action-->[caught up/away, snatched, harpazo'd, rapture]
so it is "caught up [VERB-action] together [meaning, AT THE SAME TIME] with them in the clouds..."
NOTHING in the Olivet Discourse is speaking of the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR],"
but is INSTEAD covering the Subject His "Return," at His Second Coming to the earth , FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]," aka "the age [singular] to come," etc... the earthly MK age!)
See Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347], and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"...
In the "taken" and "left" passages (which takes place at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot [NOT at "our Rapture," per CONTEXT]), it is the one "taken" that is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day), and it is the one "left" that is "left on the earth," to enter the MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing/bearing children--just as in Noah's day);
Compare Daniel 2:35 with the wording in Genesis 9:1 ("[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] earth"],) and with that also of the wording in Matt24:37-41 [and Lk17:26-37, noting esp vv.27,29
"and destroyed them ALL"... this is not what takes place following "our Rapture" event, despite what you imagine to be the case by your taking things out of CONTEXT... no offense ]
The word "together" attaches to the VERB-action-->[caught up/away, snatched, harpazo'd, rapture]
so it is "caught up [VERB-action] together [meaning, AT THE SAME TIME] with them in the clouds..."
NOTHING in the Olivet Discourse is speaking of the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR],"
but is INSTEAD covering the Subject His "Return," at His Second Coming to the earth , FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]," aka "the age [singular] to come," etc... the earthly MK age!)
See Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347], and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"...
In the "taken" and "left" passages (which takes place at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot [NOT at "our Rapture," per CONTEXT]), it is the one "taken" that is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day), and it is the one "left" that is "left on the earth," to enter the MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing/bearing children--just as in Noah's day);
Compare Daniel 2:35 with the wording in Genesis 9:1 ("[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] earth"],) and with that also of the wording in Matt24:37-41 [and Lk17:26-37, noting esp vv.27,29
"and destroyed them ALL"... this is not what takes place following "our Rapture" event, despite what you imagine to be the case by your taking things out of CONTEXT... no offense ]-
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According to pre-trib belief, the resurrection and rapture occur together. The verse you just quoted proves that the deceased are resurrected and the living are raptured. Post-trib also believe this, the main point of dispute is pre or post tribulation. Other verses say this occurs on the last day. We have already covered that the second return of Christ is on the last day, after the tribulation. We have also concluded that Christ's return isn't a two phase process. It happens once. The only interpretation consistent with scripture is a post-trib rapture and resurrection. I rest my case.