Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think some should ask themselves why they have such a personal, emotional aversion to the idea of a "pre-trib" departure of "the Church which is His body" in the Rapture... since there is such an abundance of scripture showing it...

 

[Truth7t7]

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

In answer to your question "Removal from or preservation through," in the scripture above Jesus says: "I will keep you out of the hour of trial," not preserve you through it or during it, but I will keep you out of the hour of trial.

You quote the "Standard" dispensational false claim that Rev 3:10 is God's promise to rapture the church to heaven before the great tribulation?

1.) How are those of the synagogue of Satan going to worship at the churches feet, if it's gone from earth in a rapture to heaven?

2.) How's the church going to overcome if its raptured away to heaven before the tribulation?

Revelation 3:9-13KJV
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Truth7t7]

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

In answer to your question "Removal from or preservation through," in the scripture above Jesus says: "I will keep you out of the hour of trial," not preserve you through it or during it, but I will keep you out of the hour of trial.

The tribulation's "Two Witnesses"?

It's going to be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the witnesses are going to be in full control of all plagues upon the Beast and his kingdom, All Plagues!

Will God fulfill his promise to protect the Church from the final hour of earths temptation during the tribulation?

Yes! Just as in the days of old in Egypt, as clearly seen in Isaiah 26:20-21, the Church is instructed to enter their dwellings and shut their doors until the Lord's indignation is past, exactly like the Passover in Egypt, "Awesome"!

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Truth.. facts. I read some of the verses and they only give one side of that verse not both or all. Like "falling away/apostasy". So many leave out the word can also mean "departure". Then you don't hear how that word "departure" was once the first word used and written.

So once you state a fact that is not written.. nothing to talk about. What we don't read hear much is "what I personally believe is and why" <----see they know.. there is no verse saying PRETRIB happens before the tribulation. They know there is no verse saying Caught up will happen after the great tribulation.

Hello Blade!

The word 'apostasia' can be translated as 'departure,' however, it has to retain the original meaning from the Greek word from which it is derived. This word is only used twice, one in 2 Thess.2:3 and Acts 21:21 which is used in reference to Paul's teaching to 'Forsake' the Law of Moses. Below is the definition of the word anastasis:

HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Notice in the definition above, the word 'departure' is used to imply desertion, rebellion, falling away from, etc. Therefore, you cannot take the translated English word 'departure' and then make it to mean departing up into the air. If ever there was an attempt to twist and mutilate the meaning of a word, that would be a prime example. So yes, you can use the word 'departure' but it has to mean to depart from one's stand in faith and not sailing up into the wild blue yonder. If the Holy Spirit meant the word to mean 'departing up,' He would have used the word 'harpazo' as He did to convey the meaning of being snatched up in the air as with Paul being 'caught up' to the third heaven, Philip being 'snatched away' from the Eunuch, the male child being 'caught up' to God and His throne and the living church being 'caught up' at the appearing of the Lord. Jesus also used the word 'harpazo' when He said, "no one can 'snatch' them from My Father's hand." The bottom line is that the word 'apostasia' translated as 'departure' cannot be used to mean to depart up into the air, but as meaning to depart from one's belief.

there is no verse saying PRETRIB happens before the tribulation.

Actually there is verse that infers a pre-tribulation gathering, as listed below:

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

In the letter to Philadelphia, Jesus states that for all believers who overcome, He will keep them out of the hour of trial which is about to come upon the whole inhabited world. The 'hour of trial' is referring to the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is the closest direct verse stating that believers will be kept out of the tribulation that you will find. However, understanding the principle behind this is what is important. Said principle being that, Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ, because He took if for them. This is why Paul says that 'we' (believers) are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

 

[KJV1611]

You "Falsely" claim there is no future mass resurrection?

If Christians don't die, then there is nothing to resurrect in a future resurrection. Old Testament saints did die, and they had to be resurrected and were resurrected with Christ.

God's words below Cleary teaches a future mass resurrection of all!

"ALL That Are In The Graves Shall Hear His Voice And Come Forth"[/B]

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That hour came when those in the grave HEARD his voice and were raised with Christ at his resurrection.

 

[Truth7t7]

That hour came when those in the grave HEARD his voice and were raised with Christ at his resurrection.

100% False Claim, And They Keep Coming.

You claim the "Hour" seen in John 5:28-29 below was fulfilled at the time of Jesus Christ resurrection?

"The Prophetic Words Of This "Future" Event Were Written "After" The Resurrection Of Jesus Christ"

"The Hour Is Coming" Future From The Writing!

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[KJV1611]

Agreed. But I believe only the firstfruits "barley" of the Messiah's resurrection is in heaven right now in resurrected bodies with his like a tithe; at least the 24 elders are there presently. Now, exactly who they are, I have no clue...but I don't believe any other OT saints (like King David for instance...if we can even call him a saint) are in heaven just yet because of the passage below.

I'm assuming that you don't believe all of the Old Testament saints were raised and went up with Christ because Matthew says "many of the saints..."

(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

But look at the EXACT WORDING of those verses Yahshua. It says that many of the saints that slept rose AND came out of the graves, AND (extreme emphasis on this AND) went into the holy city AND appeared unto many. The MANY (not all) of the saints describes those who did ALL FOUR of things. To be sure, the wording of those verses DOES NOT tell us that only SOME of the Old Testament saints rose, it tells us that out of those saints that were raised, SOME of them went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Why did only some of them go into the holy city? We don't know for sure because we are not told, but we do know that not every saint who died, died in the vicinity of Jerusalem. It also could be that SOME of the saints went to other cities in Israel as a witness of God fulfilling His promises. Like I said, we are not given the reason but there are many reasons why ALL of the saints didn't go into Jerusalem.

We have the same thing in Daniel 12. MANY of THEM ( them being everyone who sleeps in the ground), will awake, some to everlasting life (saints) and some to everlasting contempt (not saints). But there is ANOTHER group that sleeps in the dust, and that group is the Giants or Nephilim. There is no resurrection for them, the resurrection is for humans only.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

No matter if Daniel 12:2 was in the past as I believe, or if it's in the future as you believe, MANY is a problem lol. In your view that means that not EVERY HUMAN BEING will be raised in the future resurrection where the just and unjust will be judged.

Also Yahshua we have to keep in mind Pro_25:2, It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

The literal EXACT reading of those two passages reveals the truth about the resurrection. This is getting long, so I'll respond to the rest of your post in a separate reply.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

In answer to your question "Removal from or preservation through," in the scripture above Jesus says: "I will keep you out of the hour of trial," not preserve you through it or during it, but I will keep you out of the hour of trial. The original Greek is word 'ek' is defined as 'out of.' And many translations have 'out from.'

As I made know to you in previous posts, the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because of our faith in Him, is the not the same as God's coming wrath which is going to be poured out upon the whole earth. Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. The church cannot be here because God's coming wrath is meant for those who have continued to reject Christ and continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature. Why do you people continue to put the church through the same punishment as the wicked, when the scriptures have demonstrated that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

The ongoing errors is not understanding that God's wrath has already been satisfied by Christ on behalf of every believer. And the other error is not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Nor do they have understanding of whose God's wrath is for and why it is coming.



Jesus warning which says, "if anyone tells you, He's (the Messiah) is out in the desert, don't go out to look. And if anyone tells you that He is in an inner room, don't believe it." This warning is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and is not speaking about the gathering of the church. During the tribulation there will be many more false prophets and people stating that He's out in the desert or in a secret room. But then He tells the reader how they will know the false Messiah's from the real one, with the real one arriving on the clouds of heaven.

Not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is another big error by expositors. Their interpretations continually have the church going through the wrath of God. We know that there will be a group of saints who come out of the great tribulation of whom the beast will make war and conquer, so if you are interpreting them as the church, how are they being preserved through the tribulation when it states that most of them are beheaded? That's not preservation! Not to mention that the last time the church is mentioned is at the end of chapter 3 and is never mention during the narrative of God's wrath.



The above is completely misquoted! The Thessalonians wrote Paul because there were people there teaching that the day of the Lord had already come, which is another description for the time of God's wrath. They were concerned because Paul had taught them that the dead in Christ would rise first and then the living believers would be changed and caught up with them, which would be followed by the period of God's wrath. So since people were teaching that the day of the Lord had come, they were concerned as to why they hadn't been caught up as Paul taught them and they were afraid that they were now in the time of God's wrath.

Why don't you try to make your posts less wordy.
I don't need the entire pre-trib doctrine preached at me in every post. I've heard it for decades. I know how it goes.
Frankly it gets boring and you've proved nothing from scripture. Try actual discussion.

You've used Rev 3:10 as an argument for early removal of the entire body of Christ. It's weak.
Jesus is speaking to one Church. He gives messages to 6 others as well. The overall message is ENDURANCE.
Do you know what became of the city of Smyrna? What happened to them historically? It was a genocide.
The church there wasn't taken out of tribulation.

Even the Philadelphian church you've used for an early rapture reference was instructed to endure.
Look at it. It's a COMMAND! To Endure. One must conquer. He wasn't talking about a sudden rescue before tribulation.
The early Churches of Western Anatolia all suffered heavy persecution. The vast majority of the Christian population in the region
was murdered or driven out.


Rev 3
10 Because you have kept my command to endure, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is going to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one takes your crown.

12 “The one who conquers I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never go out again.


I believe the hour of testing is the deception of the false prophet.
We can be kept from the powerful delusion that comes on the whole world to test THEM.

 

[KJV1611]

100% False Claim, And They Keep Coming.

You claim the "Hour" seen in John 5:28-29 below was fulfilled at the time of Jesus Christ resurrection?

"The Prophetic Words Of This "Future" Event Were Written "After" The Resurrection Of Jesus Christ"

"The Hour Is Coming" Future From The Writing!

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Check out verse 25, it gives more detail to "is coming". Jesus said that hour that's coming is RIGHT NOW.
Joh_5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[DWR]

I think some should ask themselves why they have such a personal, emotional aversion to the idea of a "pre-trib" departure of "the Church which is His body" in the Rapture... since there is such an abundance of scripture showing it...

Which church are you speaking about?
The one that meets on Sunday or the one that meets on Sat.?
The one that believes in OSAS or the ones that believes salvation can be lost?
The one that believes baptism is necessary for salvation or the one that does not?
The one that believes in tongues or the one that does not?
The one that believes in a pre-trib rapture or the one that believe in our gathering at the second coming?

I could go on and on but will leave it there.

 

[John146]

I'm assuming that you don't believe all of the Old Testament saints were raised and went up with Christ because Matthew says "many of the saints..."

(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

But look at the EXACT WORDING of those verses Yahshua. It says that many of the saints that slept rose AND came out of the graves, AND (extreme emphasis on this AND) went into the holy city AND appeared unto many. The MANY (not all) of the saints describes those who did ALL FOUR of things. To be sure, the wording of those verses DOES NOT tell us that only SOME of the Old Testament saints rose, it tells us that out of those saints that were raised, SOME of them went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Why did only some of them go into the holy city? We don't know for sure because we are not told, but we do know that not every saint who died, died in the vicinity of Jerusalem. It also could be that SOME of the saints went to other cities in Israel as a witness of God fulfilling His promises. Like I said, we are not given the reason but there are many reasons why ALL of the saints didn't go into Jerusalem.

We have the same thing in Daniel 12. MANY of THEM ( them being everyone who sleeps in the ground), will awake, some to everlasting life (saints) and some to everlasting contempt (not saints). But there is ANOTHER group that sleeps in the dust, and that group is the Giants or Nephilim. There is no resurrection for them, the resurrection is for humans only.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

No matter if Daniel 12:2 was in the past as I believe, or if it's in the future as you believe, MANY is a problem lol. In your view that means that not EVERY HUMAN BEING will be raised in the future resurrection where the just and unjust will be judged.

Also Yahshua we have to keep in mind Pro_25:2, It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

The literal EXACT reading of those two passages reveals the truth about the resurrection. This is getting long, so I'll respond to the rest of your post in a separate reply.

Some? Where is the word some? Many of the saints arose, but not all. What do you mean?

 

[Truth7t7]

Therefore, you cannot take the translated English word 'departure' and then make it to mean departing up into the air. If ever there was an attempt to twist and mutilate the meaning of a word, that would be a prime example. So yes, you can use the word 'departure' but it has to mean to depart from one's stand in faith and not sailing up into the wild blue yonder. If the Holy Spirit meant the word to mean 'departing up,' He would have used the word 'harpazo' as He did to convey the meaning of being snatched up in the air as with Paul being 'caught up' to the third heaven, Philip being 'snatched away' from the Eunuch, the male child being 'caught up' to God and His throne and the living church being 'caught up' at the appearing of the Lord. Jesus also used the word 'harpazo' when He said, "no one can 'snatch' them from My Father's hand." The bottom line is that the word 'apostasia' translated as 'departure' cannot be used to mean to depart up into the air, but as meaning to depart from one's belief.

Actually there is verse that infers a pre-tribulation gathering, as listed below:

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

In the letter to Philadelphia, Jesus states that for all believers who overcome, He will keep them out of the hour of trial which is about to come upon the whole inhabited world. The 'hour of trial' is referring to the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is the closest direct verse stating that believers will be kept out of the tribulation that you will find. However, understanding the principle behind this is what is important. Said principle being that, Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ, because He took if for them. This is why Paul says that 'we' (believers) are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

I appreciate your honesty in exposing (Thomas Ice) in his fraudulent teaching of 2 Thess 2:3 in that (Departure) equates to a rapture of the church to heaven

Twisting a word and the Scripture is a big understatement, Dallas Theological and it's best, (Thomas Ice)

 

[KJV1611]

Some? Where is the word some? Many of the saints arose, but not all. What do you mean?

Many means not all, it infers some.
(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[Truth7t7]

But there is ANOTHER group that sleeps in the dust, and that group is the Giants or Nephilim. There is no resurrection for them, the resurrection is for humans only.

Way out in "Left Field", it's going, going, it's gone!

The words seen written here, would make the most ardent Sci-Fi Novelist Blush

 

[KJV1611]

Way out in "Left Field", it's going, going, it's gone!

The words seen written here, would make the most ardent Sci-Fi Novelist Blush

Ok so what is the issue you have?
Do you not believe the Nephilim died and sleep in the dust?
Do you believe they are resurrected?
If you're going to say "way out in left field", at least explain why.

 

[Truth7t7]

Check out verse 25, it gives more detail to "is coming". Jesus said that hour that's coming is RIGHT NOW.
Joh_5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The general resurrection of all, and the final judgement is future, just as John wrote of a future event unulfilled.

Your teachings arent to be taken seriously, at this point they're pure folly, in willful ignorance on display.

 

[Truth7t7]

Ok so what is the issue you have?
Do you not believe the Nephilim died and sleep in the dust?
Do you believe they are resurrected?
If you're going to say "way out in left field", at least explain why.

Your teachings aren't to be taken seriously, at this point they're pure folly, in willful ignorance on display.

Chuck Missler and His False Nephilim Teaching Is Dead And Gone!

 

[KJV1611]

The general resurrection of all, and the final judgement is future, just as John wrote of a future event unulfilled.

Your teachings arent to be taken seriously, at this point they're pure folly, in willful ignorance on display.

Sorry you feel that way, but until you can explain to my satisfaction that RIGHT NOW doesnt mean right now, I'm sticking with what the bible says. You do realize that right after Jesus said that, the dead Old Testament saints were resurrected.

 

[John146]

Many means not all, it infers some.
(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Yes, the way it reads, however, is the many which rose also went into Jerusalem. Where did you get that only some of them which rose went into Jerusalem?
I read it as there are some of those saints which did not rise yet, but many did. But I do see your point of view.

 

[KJV1611]

Your teachings aren't to be taken seriously, at this point they're pure folly, in willful ignorance on display.

Chuck Missler and His False Nephilim Teaching Is Dead And Gone!

Oh so you're one of those who think the sons of God were Godly men that raped earthly women who gave birth to children were 20 feet tall. I don't think so.