What do you believe and why do you believe it?

We both know better. Your argument is against God not me. God cannot lie nor does He lead men into error. You are simply engaged in self delusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well with God being perfect, and with mans limited understanding....

I'd say it's better to trust Him than your limited understanding.

Then when you actually trust Him, you will get to know Him and He will change you completely.
Then yes you can have 100% reliance on Him.


Also God's perfect inspired written word proves Christ is who He said. (some jews just misunderstood when His kingdom would take place)

The Quran disproves itself pretty easily.


If you want tangible evidence I suggest reading Gods Word honestly.

Pray to Him, ask Him to show you what He wants you to see.


It ain't too late...

Immoral according to who?

Such as?

And you came to this knowledge after the unbelievable or outlandish claim that Jesus rose from the dead?

Please do.

I experienced a full-fledged miracle that is literally impossible to be explained in any other way other than that it was the hand of God upon me. It’s a long story that I will share with you if you will read it with an open heart.

Most people would self-identify as Muslim had they been raised in a Muslim country - look at the evidence... most people born in the west identify as Christian while most people in the middle east identify as muslim.

Life is not what we think it is, it's not random chance events strung together. We live in a very controlled simulation even the scientific community realizes this now.

I experienced a full-fledged miracle that is literally impossible

Real miracles are impossible which is why they are called miracles.
Real miracles are short and quick.

8 In Lystra there sat a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked.
9 He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed
10 and called out, "Stand up on your feet!" At that, the man jumped up and began to walk.
Acts 14

Coincidence and situations can be Gods working through events, but equally it could just be chance.
A lot of people miss-understand statistics. Things are unlikely, but they happen, that is not miraculous.

Each day is a miracle of life, yet that does not make it a miracle work of God that defies our understanding
of cause and effect.

I have friends who would be miraculously cured of colds, or miraculously knew when their baby would be
born. This kind of reasoning is just people wanting so badly God to exist, they create situations.

This is assuming there's no belligerence or rebellion or other kind of capacity for the children to reject the instruction of the parent.
And again to make any such valuation is to do so from a standpoint of limited observation not only in scope - no one sees the heart and no one knows the mind of God - and in range, e.g. from within time.
Take our conversation for example: you wish to change my thinking, and i, yours. Neither has happened 'yet' but we have only experienced a small amount of time, a tiny slice of eternity. What can we tell from that? What can we statistically project? Practically nothing. We do not have any sufficient basis for making claims about the end result, and that is true not only because of the experiential time factor but also because we cannot even know ourselves what our own hearts and minds are, in completeness. Complete observation has to be from without: objectivity is impossible from within a system; the quantum revolution of the last century has taught us this is the truth in a physical sense, and the Bible has said the same thing, all this time.

Human intellect and its pretense of reason is sorely limited. You, if you rely on what your own mind thinks, have no basis to judge. That is your own standpoint: didn't you arrive here yourself, saying that you once thought something was absolutely true, and then became convinced that it wasn't? So from the outset you said, you are not qualified to say what is true; you established your own fallibility.

I have many, many questions that God has not yet answered. There are many things in the bible that don't make sense. With all my shortcomings, with all the times it seems like I've walked away from God, going by life ignoring Him.. And coming back again, finding He was always there, out of all this, nothing can remove that night when Jesus entered my life. That moment when His life entered my heart and filled me with the knowledge of Himself. Regardless of what I've done, where I go, what I don't do, what I don't understand and what goes unanswered there is always unshakable knowing of the great I AM in my heart.

I am not the one telling you that I'm certain you know there is a God. SCRIPTURE says it! And I will believe God's Word over any man's every day.

The fool has said in his heart, NOT his brain, there is no God. You choose to consciously suppress the Truth because you love your sin and don't want to think that you will be held accountable to Him for it.

The issue is not some muslim or hindu born in a society where those religions are prevalent. God can, and does, use unlimited means to reach every person.
The issue is YOU! I will give you THE Gospel unto Salvation again. YOU get to choose whether to believe and receive Him, or reject and trample on His Blood He shed for you. But make NO MISTAKE, YOUR sins WILL be paid. You can either accept the free gift payment made FOR YOU by Jesus Christ, or pay for them yourself through eternity separated from Him, and EVERY good thing He created.

You DON'T have to accept Him. He will grant your request to be separated eternally from Him. You cannot even fathom the depths of horror of what that means. No one can. Until it's too late....

THE Gospel unto Salvation:
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... And most importantly the sin of DEAD works, or a moral life in an attempt to EARN Salvation. He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works for HIS Glory.

I understand exactly where you're coming from, and I have to say I'm am truly impressed by people like you that are actively seeking truth where ever it leads. I've met a few since I was born again (the last almost 6 years now), and I am grateful for it. I was NEVER like that. I was perfectly fine like letting the TV tell me what to think. If it wasn't work, family, or the matrix of "entertainment" around me being blasted through our brains for hours daily. Any though about the nature of reality, or any deeper meaning to life was nowhere in my mind at all ever. One thing about my conversion I noticed the other day when an ex-heroin addict was testifying that his mother and her pastor went in his house when he didn't was to go and brought him out. And I here so many like that, where Gods people/family have helped lead them to Jesus. It wasn't like that for me, it wasn't a new argument, or earth shaking discovery, slick mouthed pastor, or any man that lead me to Him.

Like I've said 1,000 times (not to you of course, and this wasn't a "jab" at you at all) when I hit my knees broken, and the end of my power, "my way", I saw it was the futility it was, I had NO power to change it, and at this point I though I had already done this whole "Christian Thing", and when I hit my knees I did not call out to Him, if I had every believed at all in God, I didn't then. It was God that pulled me out of the house. I think you should keep doing this right her. I am sorry if some come off a bit dismissive and overly aggressive. This doesn't excuse it at all of course, but you know the internet, and to be honest people like you are rare, so give a little slack, but I LOVE you are here, I wish it was full of people like you for both sides to learn more about the others beliefs, and to learn more about the how's, when's, what's, and why's of their own belief systems and how to share/defend what they believe better. I understand the disconnect between us, and it's the spirit in us. Before God saves us we had a dead spirit. Dead.

This was the result of the fall that all humanity in born into. Call it unfair, can it unjust, but this is the reality, you are born with a dead spirit and there is NOTHING you can do about it in the flesh. As a matter of fact outside direct revelation from some kind of Creator we would never even have hope of figuring out what the problem is, and I know in our modern world full of crazy fiction, stories, false religions, etc...., believing this stuff seems foolishness. Talking snakes, worldwide floods, virgin births, forgiveness of sin, the kingdom of God, there is s lot there that is foolishness to those who are perishing. they can't see the truth, they can't see there is more than what we are born to, more than the flesh can offer. They can’t see Jesus is King over EVERYTHING. You can’t even fathom the spirit dead in you. Come to Jesus to find life. He resurrects you spirit and reconciles it to His. It’s the very truth of all reality.

Yes, cherry-picking.

How are you going to deal with YOUR sin? Answer that, and then we'll discuss the fruit.

i believe in jesus christ the son of God......🎤🎤🎤🎤🎤

Do some study. Studying is the way to learn about God. It's an amazing book. It is shallow enough a child can wade in, yet so deep it can completely submerge an elephant. From 100,000 foot view it is divided into two parts. The story of a nation, and the story of a Man. The logic of prophecy goes along two different lines. Prophecy in Greek logic is prediction and fulfillment. Hebrew philosophy is pattern. You can spend years contrasting those two and you will find them very consistent. For study, I prefer NASB version, but keep a KJV on hand. When I want to inspect a verse more closely, I use the KJV verbage to find the translated word in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Things can become more clear. Of course there are probably apps for your phone that are much more convenient tools, I'm just a bit challenged with them. Then I like to use the NLT when I am simply reading for the enjoyment of the story. You can study passages for doctrinal clarity, or you can study a passage that simply speaks to you. You can study with this in mind. (again just one way to approach). Exegesis - what did the author "SAY". That is the purpose for having Strong's book. What were the specific words the author was using, and the meaning of those words. Then begin the process of hermeneutics, to decide what the author "MEANT". Once you get those clear, read the passage 20 or 30 times. You will be amazed at the clarity you achieve. That would be assimilation. I am not a teacher, so take all this with as much salt as you can tolerate. Before you begin, read Acts 17:11. Those referred to are blessed because they did not take things at face value. They studied and questioned to see if those things were so. Once you begin learning about God, remember...the greatest commandment was not to know the most about God, but to love Him with all your heart, soul, and mind. Devotion, I think, (once again, just me) trumps knowledge. Read Jesus' epistle to Ephesus in Revelation 2 and see if you come to the same conclusion. You said you asked for knowledge. But you don't receive when you ask without faith. I think I realize this is your dilemma. You are seeking faith. So learn about God. Something I found quite interesting that changed significantly the way I looked at things in the Old Testament was book called "The Epic of Eden". It puts a lot (like covenants) into historical perspective. One suggestion would be to start with Revelation. One of Stephen Covey's principals was "start with the end in mind". But more importantly, Rev 1:3 gives a blessing for reading that book. No other book explicitly blesses the reader for doing so. Sorry to be so long, and perhaps so wrong. But bless you for looking.

If you say so, my dear.

I'll answer using the Bible to the first question.

Deut- 12 z“If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold2 to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. 13 And when you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed. 14 You shall furnish him liberally out of your flock, out of your threshing floor, and out of your winepress. aAs the Lord your God has blessed you, you shall give to him. 15 bYou shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today.

Eph. -5 vBondservants,1 obey your earthly masters2 with fear and trembling, wwith a sincere heart, xas you would Christ, 6 not by the way of eye-service, as ypeople-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, 8 zknowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, awhether he is a bondservant or is free. 9 Masters, do the same to them, band stop your threatening, knowing that che who is both their Master4 and yours is in heaven, and that dthere is no partiality with him.


Col-22 Bondservants, obey xin everything those who are your earthly masters,7 not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 yWhatever you do, work heartily, zas for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord ayou will receive the inheritance as your reward. bYou are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.4 Masters, treat your bondservants1 justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

I think here is a good explanation...


There were two basic types of slaves in biblical times. The first were those taken in war. The clever Gibeonites avoided war altogether by offering themselves as servants to the Israelites (Joshua 9). The more common slave was one who had voluntarily sold himself or had been sold by his or her parents to pay off a debt. In a time devoid of extensive government aid or social services—or excessive credit card offers—pledging one's work was legitimate currency. In some cases, however, a debtor's labor was needed for the survival of his family, and hard choices had to be made. If a father dedicated all his work to pay off a debt, he would be unable to provide for his own family; rather than risk the whole family starving, a man would often give the creditor a child who would work the debt off. The family would survive, and the child sold into slavery would at least have his basic needs met.

If the debt was excessive, or if the servant liked his situation, the slave became the permanent property of the master. And, just as God provided for the widow and orphan, He also cared for the slave. The Mosaic Law gave slaves the right of Sabbath,required significant compensation for abuse , gave specific protection for women and commanded that all slaves be set free on the Year of Jubilee.Job asserts that God not only holds him Often, if a man had no heir, his property passed on to his slave.These concessions do not condone the practice of one human being owning another, but they do provide for the care and support of those unable to support themselves.

It is clear that the slavery mentioned in the Bible was quite different from the slavery practiced during the last several hundred years. The slavery of the Bible was more akin to indentured servitude than modern-day slavery. The Bible's punishment for kidnapping someone and keeping or selling him was death—in other words, involuntary slavery was a capital offense.


So that is the first question answered. As to the second, I cannot answer if I do not know what you are referring to.

Thank you for your answers. I understand then. Sorry for mis-assuming. This is all via text so it is bit harder to figure out without dialoge.

The thing that interests me the most was your experience which you claim is the Holy Spirit. The fact that you acknowledge that it probably was, also makes me guess that it was. Because you felt changed. And that is actually what the Holy Spirit does.

The fact that you are here tells me God brought you here. All is by design. There are no coincedences in life and God is a soverign God. Meaning He uses even the bad, and works all things for His good. For His glory.

It wouldnt surprise me that, the journey you went on in unbelief and doubt, was all intentional and lead by God. You see Gods ways are much higher than our ways. He made us, I think you can agree humans have no such power or way to do such a miracle as creating life in human form or any other form. FROM SCRATCH. (Im not referring to cloning or hybriding.) So the way God operates we are not able to even comprehend. Our brains do not have that capacity.

Your story began with not being happy. Were you depressed at the time? Suicidal? Can you share what you were going through?

You described it as a time when someone is vulnerable. So I imagine it was not an easy time. But you experienced the supernatural. You refer to as the Holy Spirit. And I believe you are correct. This even changed you. You cannot be unchanged at this point. You are back to find answers because that event cannot be duplicated although you have tried.

But theres more. You were a baby in Christ in your conversion. You needed milk from the Word. You needed a pastor and brothers to guide you in your walk with God. Instead unbelief and ungodly people aborted you... and im sure that has been a nasty adventure in itself. Because the world has nothing good to offer.

But God is a forgiving God and has His arms wide open ready to recieve you.. are you really ready to put down all your arguing and rejection of your Father?

I agree with you that the starting point for morality is arbitrary but "maximising people's emotional and physical wellbeing" is a standard in of itself and it can be measured by the Social Sciences. There is an optimum wellbeing that can be reached. I think people know this deep down. The assumptions are that pleasure is preferable to pain, health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death, freedom is preferable to incarceration, etc. Do you think these are good assumptions for a thriving, healthy, co-operative society for our children to grow up in?
You believe you have THE MORAL STANDARD but how did you decide that was the right one? More importantly, do you consider slavery and genocide to be moral or not?

Slavery - enforced servitude because death was the alternative. Which would you choose, death or serving another
for life?

Genocide - A community is so toxic and infested with disease they must be wiped out. Would you choose to isolate
them until they do it themselves or bring about their end? The genocide in scripture is commanded by God.
If you have seen God lead you with a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night, defeat the whole Egyptian
army, give laws and judgements that killed people, why would you not follow commands of judgements against others?

And these community wars were specific in history, with specific reasons, not a principle to follow in general.
Today we have a very different perspective because of education, resources, food, technology, transport, medicine,
isolating diseased groups from others like the Ebola outbreaks.

Morality - Should we send $100,000 a year to keep a violent individual who has murdered people in prison or execute
them, saving the money and bringing justice?

The problem is as we discover, often these violent individuals have personality disorders that create this behaviour,
which then creates the problem, are they innocent of the disorder and we need to control it, rather than eliminate the
threat and the cost?

So our brutality or resolution to these conflict issues is related to our wealth and capability to support a prison system
and minimise the effects of destructive behaviour.

This is the most depressing
This is the most depressingly awful post I've read so far on this site. Do you not value health and happiness for yourself and others at all, even if they may be fleeting? If you try to live in the moment a bit, like a child, you may find joy in life. Provided their basic physical and emotional needs are met, children are happy. Much happier than adults actually. Having said that, I wouldn't leave children alone with a box of matches, so adult heads are needed. But I think adults have lost something. Politics and poor economic systems producing stress is part of the reason. Also I think religion has introduced a drop of poison into the world and has given false hope of an afterlife which can never be demonstrated. Religion has continually told people that they are sick (have sin) and that only religion has the cure (have faith). Christianity is the greatest story ever sold. Just for clarification I am not discounting the possibility of an afterlife. But there is no reliable evidence for one so I believe this is the only life I'm going to get. If it turns out that there is an afterlife, and it's a better, higher plane of existence than this one, then it's a bonus. But your belief in an afterlife and my lack of belief in one, does not alter the fact of whether there is one or not.